Regret it Brexit Part 2

So Michel Barnier has this afternoon rejected the time limiting of the backstop arrangement and rejected the idea of a Customs Union extending to mainland U.K.
Barnier and the EU want a border down the Irish Sea. Which of course is totally unacceptable to the DUP.

What do Leave voters think of a border in the Irish Sea? It might mean Northern Ireland splits from U.K.

I agree with Nicola Sturgeon, Boris is a national embarrassment and totally unfit for public office, the man is a liar and a cheat. He must think the public are really stupid with his stunt of the 'secret recording'. Teresa May is now having to deal with his behaviour as she arrives at the G7 summit, which was probably his plan to undermine her. He is a truly nasty piece of work, and I say this irrespective of his stance on Brexit. At least I was sincere in the way I voted, unlike him.

Do you think Boris and Davis are hoping to be fired or made to resign so they don’t have to face the consequences of their ( in) actions? As the chickens are coming home to roost and even they can see it’s not panning out brilliantly? I know the loyal Brexit bunch claim that negotiations are going badly because “the EU are making it difficult”, despite the fact that the EU have made their position clear all along and it is our government who have lurched and wavered. ( and anyone who points that out is criticised as unpatriotic! )
Quote of the week: Nigel Farage whined last week: “I never said it would be a beneficial thing to leave and everyone would be better off." nuff said.

My sympathy goes to Theresa May, trying to get a compromise with warring parties and I have no confidence in choosing any result.
I fear a no deal result which will be chaos, have no doubt that will affect everybody and the poor most of all. No deal will mean a border in Ireland and gridlock in Dover, let no one have doubt about that. I was hoping Corbyn had a more realistic proposal but it's just a variation of the Tory proposals.
We are in a very weak negotiating position the EU are not going to give us any advantage over other members, so all they have to do is keep saying no. We either play by their rules or leave and I don't think they really care which, is that different to any other partnership.

Why should we have advantages over other members, that isn’t what we are negotiating for.
A negotiation is two parties finding compromises in getting the deal that they want, and that means both sides.
There will be a deal because it’s wanted, not just by us, but by them as well.
On the subject of Boris Johnson, my view is that he should have been given a harmless job such as Culture, not the FO!

The problem with what you say Lemon is that the EU has a set of rules many of which state that to carry out various businesses etc you need to be a number of the EU. The U.K. wishes to continue doing many of the same things as they do now and not belong to the EU - and they seem surprised when the EU point this fact out to them and they (the U.K.) start saying basically that the EU is not playing fair.
Ownership and registering of companies is a big part of this and so explains why so many are opening part of their businesses in an EU country. It is companies such as British Airways which will have a big decision to make -a British company with its registered office in another country,
I think the fishing rights will be another interesting subject because many British fishermen sold the rights they received to big foreign companies and since then have just moaned the EU took their fishing rights away.

It would appear that the population of NI are leaning far more favourably towards a reunification with the South. If this is the case, eventually as I understand it they will be in a position to have a referendum on the subject. Should this be successful it would surely be the most sensible scenario. NI gets to stay in the EU and have the same abortion rights which is what they want, and for us the issue of the border would be resolved, which is what we want. As NI seem to be unable to form a government and we seem stuck with the the odious DUP it would seem the most obvious and sensible solution if that's what the majority want - fingers crossed!!

So you're willing to countenance the breakup of the UK to achieve your objective, nn?

How would you feel about the Scots following suit and voting for independence to remain in the EU?

If joining the South is what the majority of the people of NI want then as stated in the Good Friday agreement they can do just that. Ireland should never have been divided in the first place as dividing any country East and West Germany, North and South Korea, is always problematic. If the majority of Scots want to leave the UK, then so be it. Unlike communist countries, we don't hold people against their will, or like the EU make it virtually impossible to leave.

It is not impossible to leave the EU if you want to become a poor, isolated, marginalised remnant of the great country we once were.

Brexit would diminish us, most of the world is already laughing at us for having had such a stupid vote, and if NI and Scotland went their own way, what used to be The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would be reduced to England and Wales.

I wonder how long it would be for people in Wales to decide they no longer wanted to be Little Englanders?

nigglynellie Sat 09-Jun-18 16:38:18

So much in agreement with you on this Nigglienellie. So well put.

Thank you Allygran1?

Modern history suggests we have “held people against their will” which has ended in armed struggles. Maybe lessons have been learned, but we shouldn’t feel smug or superior to others in this regard. Of course it isn’t impossible to leave the EU, but we will be the poorer for it.

It is interesting that SNP have said that they want to join the EU but stay out of the Euro and continue using the £. Not quite so simple as that. It is so scary that the SNP have no understanding of the complexity and the dangers of being in the EU as a very small Country. The Scot's I know will never go for it. The future is expansive and not tied to a single currency. The Eurozone is collapsing. Hence Nicola Sturgeon's comments about wanting to stick with our safer and stronger £. It would not be automatic or as simple as she seems to make it sound.
I agree with Nigglynellie, if that is what the majority of Scots want then we should not stand in their way.
The problems of paying back the Scottish debt to the UK no doubt can be worked out, if that is the way the majority in Scotland want to go.

crystaltipps can you expand on "modern history suggests we have "held people against their will", which has ended in armed struggle?

If the people of Wales wanted independence from England, again we would never hold them against their will. As for our once great nation! It was partly built on the backs of people who were effectively enslaved, however benignly, by a foreign country! Not good as we've discovered by our own adventure into the EU. We shall be fine after Brexit to the envy of those poor countries still inside this dictatorship, Greece, Italy, Spain to name but three.

The problems of paying back the Scottish debt to the UK no doubt can be worked out, if that is the way the majority in Scotland want to go.

I don't think that the Scots would acknowledge that they owe any debt to the UK. Particularly as Scottish oil revenue was squandered in tax cuts by the Thatcher government.

(Where's Paddyann when you need her )

Crystaltipps. You say "it isn't impossible to leave the EU".

The evidence suggest's that the EU is doing everything in it's power to stop Britain from leaving. Every route Britains tries in negotiation leads back to single market and customs union. Isn't that what all the negotiation difficulties are about the four pillars of the EU? The EU is an incestous and formed State, and in recent months I have started to see similarities to another, although religious based deception based on false images and a man who in that instance claimed to be a prophet of God. In the case of the founding "father" (even the term smacks at something undemocratic) designed the structure to tie people in.

Britain is the first to challenge the hold that the EU has over it's "citizens" yes we are citizens of the EU....by stealth. The EU as Nigglynellie say in my view correctly is making it virtually impossible for us to leave. The terms for leaving should be that we are not required to be in the single market, or in a restrictive customs union. But those avenues of freedom are being constantly blocked and a negative propaganda campaign has been launched to scare people into believing it will be easier to stay put.

If that is not holding it's citizen's as prisoners when they want to leave, I don't know what is.

Not good as we've discovered by our own adventure into the EU.

Comparing our experience of the EU with British enslavement of 'subject people' of the British Empire is ridiculous and frankly disrespectful to those who experienced real slavery. The EU is a union of free peoples in which we have played a key role. To characterise our involvement as 'slavery' is rabble rousing meaningless rhetoric.

MaizieD. The Scottish debt is a matter of record, not a matter of opinion.

I am sure if I try really hard after my evening meal I will be able to find it.

alygran modern history starts in the 16th century, but I won’t bore you with going that far back - 20th c examples - Ireland Easter uprising 1916, Kenya- Mau Mau uprising, division of India and Pakistan, Palestine, Cyprus just off top of my head. Just saying Britain hasn’t got a squeaky clean history, much wealth has been built on exploiting empire. Now we don’t have an Empire to exploit, we aren’t going to be that significant a world player post Brexit. All those saying we were ok before in the 1950s should realise we weren’t actually on our own then.

Of course it would be easy for NI to stay in the EU as part of Eire, except for the change of currency nothing much would alter, but for Scotland, starting as a new country, it could be quite difficult. A hard border with England for a start?!! Not sure about keeping the £ as presumably they would still be tied to the Bank of England and all that entails when surely the whole idea of independence is to get away from that! Presumably the end game is to use the Euro? Can't quite understand wanting to embrace the EU when you want independence, which surely means running your own affairs without interference from another party?!! But of course any of this depends on the will of the people concerned and nothing to do with what I want!

The terms for leaving should be that we are not required to be in the single market, or in a restrictive customs union.

In which case we shouldn't be under the illusion that we can get the same benefits from the EU as a third country that we enjoy as being part of it. If anyone thinks we can enjoy them without observing the 'four pillars' they are just seriously delusional.

MaizieD. Frankly comparing what crystaltipps has said and my response to what you call "British Enslavement" is frankly ridiculous, and not worthy of a response. Keep to the thread.
All slavery of any description is completely and utterly unacceptable. How dare you disrespect modern slavery of all types subjugating it to another form of equally unacceptable slavery of people, in another time . All slavery of any era is wrong.

MaizieD Sat 09-Jun-18 18:18:47

You have just confirmed in what you posted that it is impossible to leave the EU. If one can't leave on ones own terms then we are imprisoned in the system.