Gransnet forums

News & politics

That £20bn - jam tomorrow

(41 Posts)
winterwhite Mon 18-Jun-18 09:11:05

Am I the only one to be more dismayed than pleased? This announcement reeks of cynicism. The crucial last two words of ‘£20bn per year *by 2023*’ are allowed to drop neatly off most sound bites, but how many £bn this year and next is what we most want to know. And what about social care, at breaking point already because the govt can’t bring itself to pass more funding to local councils? Nothing there at all it seems.
It sounds like a continued starvation diet all round, deliberately tinselled up to look like fairyland.

annsixty Mon 18-Jun-18 09:27:07

I heard the segment on the BBC yesterday when critics were debating the amount of money TM is promising us will be available for the NHS etc after Brexit.
They implied it is all pie in the sky.

No-one knows just how much ,or even if,we will have money to spare and the divorce from Europe bill may well be enormous.

TM is demeaning herself yet again, she may well not be in power anyway so can promise anything.

kittylester Mon 18-Jun-18 09:51:34

I think it's a good idea in principle and have, in fact, banged on about giving the NHS guaranteed income so it can plan ahead rather than lurching from year to year, every time the topic comes up. However, we need to know where the money will come from and that it is 'real' money.

And, the NHS should cut waste!

Devorgilla Mon 18-Jun-18 10:03:11

It is the usual ploy to spend money to get the electorate on side but it is welcome at a time of strained resources. We, the electorate, need to keep whichever side is in on their toes re the NHS and its funding. The only times the NHS was properly funded was under the Blair and Brown administrations. Since then it has been cut and cut and cut. The only reason it has not collapsed completely is because of the Blair/Brown funding which is now running out and hasn't been replaced under the Coalition and Tory governments. Even at the start it wasn't properly funded because no-one realised just how poor the health of the working class actually was.

Grandad1943 Mon 18-Jun-18 10:07:24

The government Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt was on sky News this morning trying to give some credence to what Therisa May had stated over the weekend in regard to NHS funding. After having some difficulty in answering questions on the amount of tax rise needed and the Brexit bonus, he then stated "I think these are questions that need to be answered by the Chancellor".

This is a government in complete disarray with almost everyone in cabinet deserting the Prime Minister on one issue or another in the last few days. Therefore, Boris Johnsons prediction of a "meltdown" in the government seems to be coming ever more likely and possibly in the next few weeks or even days.

gillybob Mon 18-Jun-18 10:24:51

I am concerned where this money will come from. Personally I think that NI should be a lifetime tax that we all pay (assuming we have enough income).

varian Mon 18-Jun-18 10:33:43

Theresa May has refused to say which taxes will rise to pay for her £20bn a year NHS boost, amid a storm of criticism over her claim of a “Brexit dividend” to part fund it. Pressed on her admission that tax hikes will be needed, the prime minister gave no details, saying only that “we will be contributing more as a country”.

Meanwhile, independent experts and a senior Tory MP dismissed Ms May’s claim – echoing the much-derided Leave campaign – that the government would have extra cash from leaving the EU. By increasing NHS funds Theresa May will be looking to save herself.

“Don’t even begin to swallow any rubbish that this will be some Brexit bonanza,” tweeted Sarah Wollaston, the Tory chair of the Commons Health Committee. "In reality the tax rises & borrowing will need to be higher as a result.”

Paul Johnson, the head of the respected Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS), said the government had accepted that Brexit would swipe £15bn a year from revenues – or £300m a week. Furthermore, the “divorce bill”, plus commitments to replace Brussels funding in key areas, would swallow up all of the returning EU contributions until 2022. “There is no Brexit dividend,” Mr Johnson said.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-funding-latest-20-billion-theresa-may-tax-rises-brexit-dividend-a8402951.html

kittylester Mon 18-Jun-18 11:27:25

I agree ginny!

There was no mention of social care either just how many over 85 year olds there will be but their greatest need will presumably be for good social care to keep them/us out of hospital!

yggdrasil Mon 18-Jun-18 12:09:29

Totally ignoring all the subsidies and grants we currently get from the EU that the Tories have promised to keep going after Brexit. The balance is nowhere near the amount May has promised the NHS.
And where are these taxes going to come from? It sounds like ordinary people, not a restoration of corporation tax, or a higher rate for the very rich.
They take Labour's policies, but not the funding plans.

paddyann Mon 18-Jun-18 13:55:48

"Sir" James Dyson was on tv last night talking about his yearly 2 million pounds in grants from the EU ..for his farm...That 's the same James Dyson BILLIONAIRE who took his workforce out of Britain because he didn't want to pay minimum wage!! Mr Dyson claims everybody gets the grants to make all farmers the same? Surely you have to apply for them?There are a lot of farmers I know who dont get them and who ARE in need of finacial help

lemongrove Mon 18-Jun-18 14:08:09

T May has not ‘refused to say’ where the money will come from, did anyone watch the speech today? Hammond will be announcing exactly what will happen and the figures,
Taxation will have to go up.....good! It needs to, and the NHS needs more money, needs to cut waste and needs a plan for the future.
Am guessing a lot of comment is sour grapes because ‘the dreaded Conservatives’ have announced this and had it been Corbyn ( if he had been PM) there would be shrieks of congratulation all round.grin
I couldn't care less which political party spends more on the NHS as long as they do so!

varian Mon 18-Jun-18 14:21:54

Who would want to be Philip Hammond?

lemongrove Mon 18-Jun-18 14:24:28

Mrs Hammond?

winterwhite Mon 18-Jun-18 14:31:30

I don’t think that this is anything whatever to do with any other political party, but whether or not the Cons govt is providing enough and in good time rather than too little too late.
If this govt doesn’t want to be thought insincere why announce such a major new initiative on a Sunday with the small print to follow on about Tuesday?
We all want the NHS to be able to plan beyond the end of its nose but how can it plan even for 5 years on this kind of ‘funny money’?
While social care - wh includes most dementia care - can only plan on the likelihood of further reductions.

Sar53 Mon 18-Jun-18 14:31:51

lemongrove I totally agree with you. If we want a better NHS and better social care we all have to pay for it. We all use it to some extent and the money has to come from somewhere.

suzied Mon 18-Jun-18 14:32:34

Yes she said it would come from taxation. The criticisms are no to do with sour grapes-not sure how that is logical. ( btw Corblyme and the Shallow (sic) cabinet wouldn't get my vote) its to do with the fact that she was disingenuous in claiming this was a Brexit bonus, when anyone with a grasp of the figures would realise it wasn't. No objection to taxes being raised to pay for NHS, just don't want it used to give some sort of credence to the red bus lie.

varian Mon 18-Jun-18 15:12:37

Surely no intelligent person can possibly still believe the red bus lie?

alreadytaken Mon 18-Jun-18 16:01:37

Where is this "waste" I keep hearing still exists in the NHS - specific examples please? There is a lot of bureaucracy related to having to be accountable to the public, but do you really want to remove that and e.g. not have mistakes investigated?

Of course the government's introduction of clinical commissioning groups could be reversed.

The examples I've seen of cutting "waste" are removing services. Some of these are lower priority services but some e.g. some travel vaccines could end up costing the NHS more than we gain.

We pay less for our NHS now than most Western countries and get far more than we deserve from it.

lemongrove Mon 18-Jun-18 17:07:01

already there have been many examples of waste right throughout the NHS, small items costing a fortune ( £10 a roll of sellotape, £100 for a lightbulb etc) and many accounting errors, paying a supplier £2,000 instead of £200
This may seem small beer to some, but if this is replicated in all hospitals constantly it adds up to a huge amount.
There will be other examples of waste on a larger scale I expect, where practices needs to be changed.

mostlyharmless Mon 18-Jun-18 17:42:30

This NHS Brexit Dividend is just to distract us from the Government’s disastrous handling of Brexit.
There is no Brexit Dividend, the Government’s own forecasts are that Brexit will cost the country £15 billion a year over the next several years.
The NHS has been promised about 3.4% extra a year when it needs a minimum of 4% a year and 8 years of underfunding since 2010 means there is a lot to catch up on.
But it’s made headlines and is a useful distraction from the Brexit negotiations and May’s deceitful behaviour over the withdrawal bill amendments.
Not sure if it’s a good idea to keep reminding everyone about the embarrassing Brexit Red Bus and it’s blatantly untrue slogans.

suzied Mon 18-Jun-18 17:42:57

Yes definitely waste - partly due to profiteering from various private companies, hangovers from the disastrous pfi projects and lack of coordination/ accountability within the organisation. I am sure if you were designing the NHS today it wouldn't look like it does at the moment.

mostlyharmless Mon 18-Jun-18 17:50:30

Caroline Lucas (Green Party) on Twitter:

❌Longest waiting times for years
❌People being treated in corridors
❌NHS Trusts almost £1bn in the red.
❌Nurses forced to use food banks
❌An uncosted plan based on fantasy economic projections.

Yes well done, @Conservatives 👏👏👏

MaizieD Mon 18-Jun-18 18:04:59

Would you like to give us links to this evidence of wastage, 'lemon'?

It sounds like a lot of money but in percentage terms it is less than the NHS was getting under Labour. The tories introduced cuts which have brought the NHS to crisis point and the current amount promised will only keep it ticking over at the current rate.

Of course, there is nothing at all of a 'Brexit bonus' about this money. May is just trying to spin it. It will be financed solely from taxation and borrowing. The Sky News clip explains:

twitter.com/GuitarMoog/status/1008469763557818378

MaizieD Mon 18-Jun-18 18:06:52

^ partly due to profiteering from various private companies,^

Wasn't the '£100 lightbulb' actually what the PFI company charged to replace it?

maryeliza54 Mon 18-Jun-18 18:31:21

The promised money as well as not including social care also does not include increases for public health or capital expenditure. As for taxation increases - devil and detail come to mind. gilly I agree about NI being paid on all earnings regardless of age and I would also remove the cap for the higher paid. However what I would not want is a general increase in NI but an income tax increase which is much fairer.