If there was another EU referendum...

Jo Swinson, Deputy Leader of the Liberal Democrats, who gave birth to her second child two weeks ago, writes-

"Last night there was a crucial vote. When I knew I couldn't be there, I made sure I was 'paired'. This happens all the time in Parliament. As I could not vote, a Conservative MP agreed not to vote as well, balancing things out.

But then, at the last minute, the Conservatives went back on their word. The MP I was 'paired' with turned up and voted. At first I was lost for words, now I am angry.

It seems that there are no depths to which the Conservatives won't stoop to deliver their destructive, divisive Brexit.

We can't let the Conservatives decide the Brexit deal on their own. We have to give the people the final say, including the option to remain in Europe."

Allygran, about Brexit spliting up families- I was surprised myself yesterday, when post after post after post, said the same, eg, that people were struggling to meet, visit or have visit parents sibblings and other friends and relatives. Not because they voted Brexit, per se - but because of the related stuff that has come about, about immigrants for instance- which shocked in their nature. And the total inability or refusal to see how strongly their life was going to be affected, as UK residents in the EU, and how they were being used as bargaining chip, and how it may totally destroy the livelyhoods they ave worked so hard to achieve.

Why would you find that so difficult to believe. This is not just about 'political opinion'- it is about their life, their future, and their possible demise, one way or other. And about some traits in said parents or relatives or friends, which were previously sort of hidden, but have suddenly been exposed. Prejudice against immigrants- and yes, sheer racism in many cases.

If your child, or brother or sister says 'I am really scared of what will happen because of x, y, z' and the reply is 'ah well, never mind, suck it up and don't be a snowflake' - how would YOU feel about them?

I am very fortunate that all of my large extended family, who are supporters of the Liberal Democrats, the Green Party, the SNP and the Labour Party, all voted Remain.

All of them, because they are all thoughtful, intelligent people who appreciated the many benefits that the UK has had because of EU membership, who did not overlook the Northern Irish border problem, who were not taken in by the lies on the bus, and are all now utterly horrified at the prospect of brexit.

However I do know families which are now bitterly divided and may never recover from this division.

My family are still together, our voting split, we’re not being rude to each other and have discussed each other’s reasons for the way we voted and respected the opposing views. Perhaps we’re lucky being able to empathise with the other side without getting violent or holding grudges. I can see various reasons why people voted remain, but I don’t have to agree with them or fall out with them. Neither would I insult them or call them snowflakes.

Some of my family are devout Christian, some agnostic and some atheists. We discuss and agree to disagree. I suspect these families would find something else to fall out about if Brexit didn’t exist.

Good post Nfk and same with my family too.
Varian many families have ‘intelligent and thoughtful people’ in you know.

Many of my friends are thoughtful and more intelligent (well, more highly educated) than me.
They thought long and hard, some from a wealth of experience in industry, and voted Brexit.
They thought I was potty to vote remain.

varian I realise and appreciate you are very passionate about this issue. But to imply that all the people who voted to leave are not thoughtful, intelligent people isn't very helpful. It will only harden opinions of people who voted to leave and create more discord. Likewise the people who talk scathingly about "remoaners" and the "metropolitan liberal elite".

I voted to remain and my husband voted to leave. We both feel we made the right decision but appreciate each other's point of view. Immigration was not a big issue for my husband, nor were many of the reasons that some leavers put forward. He, like me, was disgusted with the way Greece was treated and saw the EU as a bit of an "old boys' club". I understand that point of view but feel the advantages (a less insular outlook, health and safety, employment, environmental and other protections) outweighed the disadvantages (a more inward-looking country with reduced safety standards, a greater reliance on trade with the US and an acceleration of arms trading) and that we should have stayed and tried to change things.

We sometimes get a bit heated when we discuss this issue but I find it difficult to understand why families should be torn apart by it.

I know it happens because I have a Scottish ex work colleague whose family still lives in Scotland. She voted to stay with the UK and they voted for independence. It has caused a massive rift, which I think is a terrible shame and serves no purpose whatsoever.

I could have written most of your post Eloethan
And I have several Scottish friends too, who would have voted to stay with the UK had they lived there - obviously as they live in 'the rest of the UK' they prefer it to be united.

But to imply that all the people who voted to leave are not thoughtful, intelligent people isn't very helpful.

I would say it is extremely unhelpful indeed and very unpleasant - but it is constantly denied by some on the threads that that is what they are saying.

I said that a group who all voted remain were thoughtful and intelligent and voted remain. At no point did I say that anyone who voted leave was not intelligent or thoughtful. I merely described one group of people.

varian
Seems like a Donald Trump response.

Eloethan- as said, it depends why people to vote 'leave' - I totally understand your OH's concerns, about Greece, etc. It is not about voting 'leave' or 'remain' - but about how and why.

If you have relatives, or friends, who made it clear they voted because of immigration, for instance, using racist arguments, and demonstrating that they are racist- for instance, then it is a totally different thing. Most of us can listen to intelligent arguments, and agree to disagree. But there are some lines which I personally will not cross- racism, sheer prejudice and fascism, for instance.

Same with Trump voters in my family. The reason I have cut them off my life, and they are just second cousins- is nto because they voted for Trump, per se, but because of the sheer racism they clearly spouted in doing so. And the blatant prejudice shown for the less well off, and those who could not afford healthcare. There is a massive difference.

There's a lot to be said for the phrase ..
'We will agree to differ'

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/948214/brexit-news-Francois-Hollande-slams-remainers-pushes-quick-EU-divorce-negotiations

It appears the door is already closed.

I voted to remain, I weighed up the pros and cons, and decided on balance, to vote remain. There were/are a great many things I didn’t, and still don’t, like about the EU. Finally, after giving everything due consideration I voted remain on the basis of one over riding concern. I was very concerned about our financial services industry. We can’t afford to lose it to Frankfurt or Paris because it provides such a huge amount of the tax revenue in this country. I know that Frankfurt/Paris would love to take that lucrative industry from London. This is what our nearest and dearest neighbours would like to do. I truly hope we can hang on the financial services but I’m very worried that this won’t happen. Financial services weren’t mentioned in Theresa May’s White Paper as far as I could ascertain.
However, whatever the future, families who allow their political beliefs to come between them are, in my opinion, emotionally illiterate. I would never put any belief, political or otherwise, before my family. My family are far too important and loved for that to be the case. Where is love in all this falling out over Brexit?

I voted to remain, not because I much understand the economic issues involved, but because I feel European. A lot of Scots do feel European, also maybe especially younger people who have travelled and got themselves a good education.

PS, If a second
Referendum came along it would feel wonderful to me, and of course I'd vote to remain with Europe, especially as the alternative seems to be voting for Trumpland its values and ghastly exports (except for Harley Davidsons).

There are plenty of older people who have had a good education and travelled the world Alexa ( I include myself in that btw)
Do Scots feel more ‘European’ than in England, Wales, or NI?
I wouldn’t have thought so.

Alexa
We always have and will continue to be European. Our group of little islands rests on the continent of Europe and unless sour grapes from the EU can come up with a method of casting us loose, they are stuck with us.

Additionally the Brits have travelled worldwide for centuries and many actually holidayed and were educated in Europe prior to us joining the EU.

A lot of Scots do feel European, also maybe especially younger people who have travelled and got themselves a good education.
Probably more because the Scottish throne had connections with the French throne.

I think many of us travelled and got themselves a good education.

The Auld Alliance between Scotland and France (1295) pre-dates the Anglo-Portuguese Treaty of 1373. Scottish Universities and scholars were closely allied with those of Europe in the mediaeval period.
I think Scotland has always been more European than England.

During the Agevin Plantagenate period of 12 and 13 centuries I believe English kings ruled over most of France.

Annodomini, I did wonder if the Auld Alliance had much to do with Scots' feeling for Europe and Europeans for Scots.
Just after the war my brother was on a cycling holiday in France. Some hostile French people in a village accused him, a handsome fair haired young man whose French no doubt had a Scottish accent, of being a 'Bosch'. He told them "Non. Je suis Ecossais" and they were all smiles and welcome.

alexa we've had that response often.
Most recently last week!

Alexa back in 1983 I visited a Tabac in Cherburg and the elderly chap with one leg (war veteran?) was, despite my cheerful attempts at french, extremely surly and unhelpful! A friend pointed out that he probably thought that I was German!!! I went back on a pretext, and assured him that I was Anglais! With that he shook my hand kissed me several times, refused any payment for my purchase, and thanked me profusely for saving France, not once but twice!! (not personally of course!) Oh dear, how times have changed!