If there was another EU referendum...

Is the House of Lords democratic? Unelected, payments for rolling up, huge expenses and perks, subsidised bars and restaurants....quite a few there enjoy a glass or three.

The UK is guaranteeing the rights of EU workers who have settled here, be nice to hear all the EU countries being reciprocal about this matter.

Maw you are spot on, it isn’t the UK we need be worrying about ( regarding the extreme right wing) but several other EU countries.

The UK is a democracy suzied .....what bits of it do you feel are undemocratic?
It’s well known that Junker likes a drink or three, indeed he had to be helped by two friends/colleagues a few days ago, one on either side of him to stumble along , what an advert for a President of the EU!

"He agreed that it never will, and among other matters, people like Mandelson and Kinnock and their counterparts elsewhere in the EU will continue to be parachuted into very highly paid jobs, not to mention expenses, without a single democratic vote being cast."

- sounds a bit like our own dear House of Lords - the UK isn't a paragon of democracy.

He agreed that it never will, and among other matters, people like Mandelson and Kinnock and their counterparts elsewhere in the EU will continue to be parachuted into very highly paid jobs, not to mention expenses, without a single democratic vote being cast.

That is not a situation unique to the EU; it happens in national and local government too. Leaving the EU is not going to eliminate nepotism and the Old Boys' Network in the UK.

But then, I suppose that a bit of apparent corruption in UK 'elite' circles is fine because it's 'our' corruption, not like the nasty foreign EU corruption?

You might want to read up on the advance of the extreme Right in European politics today.

I'm perfectly well aware of the far right in the Eu but they are not in control. Whereas our UK government (which is nominally 'in control') is as I described and having its strings pulled by more of that ilk.

While on holiday recently I met the CEO of a large company and successful company which was started by himself many years ago - point of that being that he's a very clued up businessman.
The conversation got around to Brexit and someone asked how he'd voted.
I was v surprised to hear him say he'd voted Leave. He added that he thought things would be difficult for a bit, but we'd be fine.
Incidentally he's a Scot.

I voted Remain, but it was a head rather than heart decision, and I commented to him that while I'd have liked a Remain, but with EU reform (gravy train, undemocratic practices, etc.) option, I was all too aware that it is never going to reform - turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

He agreed that it never will, and among other matters, people like Mandelson and Kinnock and their counterparts elsewhere in the EU will continue to be parachuted into very highly paid jobs, not to mention expenses, without a single democratic vote being cast.

John Nelson, who was chairman of Lloyds of London from 2011-2017, and therefore knows a great deal about business, the British economy and international trade has issued a dire warning in a letter to the Financial Times

www.ft.com/content/e415828e-8e8b-11e8-bb8f-a6a2f7bca546

Surely it is about time for politicians and the media to start paying attention before we jump off that brexit cliff.

Is the Swiss People's Party still enjoying the popularity they were a couple of years ago?
What is happening with the far right groups in Europe is quite alarming.

Thanks for the information Mamie - perhaps the people I heard of were younger, friends of the DC working over there.

It does seem to be the case that anything and evrybody connected to the EU enjoys universal appropriation often ignoring some very dodgy attitudes (growing support for AFD in Germany ) alarmingly anti immigrant racist politics (Italy and Austria) and perhaps not quite the inspirational leadership we had hoped for in France (Macron ineptitude in not dealing with his aide who was filmed wearing an entirely illegal police helmet beating up a woman )
So, Jura I certainly don’t think it is in this country where we need to most fear Right Wing extremism.
Now it is easy (very) to be critical of Gove, Johnson, Davis, and especially Rees Mogg but there are also people of sound principles who admit the EU is in a mess and far from the U.K. “dragging it down” as Margaret suggests, we might be best not being dragged down ourselves.

Jalima people who have moved to other EU countries and receive the state pension are currently entitled to treatment from the NHS. This is because the UK remains their "competent state".

Yes, our relatives are still living in France, friends in Spain and Italy; one lot in Spain would like to come back again and wish they'd never gone, but can't afford to return (but they were always reckless with money anyway).

I'm sorry if your relatives in the UK have been telling you to 'stop whingeing' jura - that is indeed unpleasant and unkind, and also for any of your friends whose relatives may be so unsympathetic.

Not sure if this is relevant to the thread, but in reply to Jura's post of 10,36 -
I'm still in contact with many british people in France who don't have all those anxieties. They have decided to stay, and there are ways to get round the problems.
The exchange rate has always been a worry but in general you can live on less in France.

Oh, FGS, Jalima, was that meant to be amusing
well, maddy found it funny at least - thanks maddy!

And, quite honestly, if that person is the best that the EU can find out of its huge population for President, then they are in a worst state than many thought.

Even pre-Brexit I think it was the rule that anyone who had lived overseas for more than six months had no right to healthcare from the NHS - not just those who moved to the EU.

Of course, emergency reciprocal healthcare is different - we have that arrangement with other countries besides EU ones.

Absolutely agree with you Maw, we have often spoken about this and we both feel that it is better for our children to have a low rate of interest on their mortgages than we have high rates of interest on our savings. However, I am aware that many pensioners really need higher interest on their savings as they rely on them to provide an income, so perhaps, as in most things, moderation is the way to go, but unfortunately the middle way seems to be impossible in British policies and politics.

Having said I would expect my family to care for me enough to be aware that I might be worse off however, I would not expect them to base a decision such as a vote, solely on my own welfare if it was at variance with their political beliefs.
As I said, entirely hypothetical but one sort of example (and I am not bringing Brexit into this equation ) is the present low rate of interest available on savings and investments which hits pension investments, consequently annuity rates and pensions and the income from savings many pensioners depend on.
At the same time it keeps mortgage rates low for our children’s generation
Do you see what I mean about conflicting interests?
Hypothetical and probably irrelevant - alors revenons à nos moutons ......

But you did say 'has been shown here too' so hardly surprising that I took it to be this thread.

Thank you for explanation Jura.

Thanks MawBroon, I am glad you see that and understand.

Jalima- people moved abroad to EU countries, with the firm knowledge that their pensions and rights could be transfered, that they would have the right to remain, and access to good healthcare provisions.

They NOW find themselves in a situation where all the above are no longer true- due to Brexit- and at a time, when 10 or 20 years older, they know they will need it most.

They bought cheap houses with the sale of their UK home, worked very hard to renovate them with their pension money. They are in areas where houses are only bought by expats, some from UK, some from Germany, or Holland... and will be worthless if many need to return because of Brexit. And yes, they would become a 'burden' on the state for housing, social care and healthcare.

No-one could predict what is happening now. People planned carefully, and the rug is being pulled from under them. Is that so hard to understand?

Maddyone. not atlking about this thread in particular.

The poorest will be hit hardest if Theresa May pursues a “catastrophic” no-deal Brexit, John Major has warned.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-affect-poor-second-referendum-john-major-theresa-may-a8458566.html

British exit from the European Union could cost £3,500 per person. German think-tanks warn that British EU exit would devastate the economy and wipe up to £225bn off UK GDP

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11566396/British-exit-from-the-European-Union-could-cost-3500-per-person.html

Some people cannot comprehend the size of £225 billion, but £3,500 per person is a huge chunk of most people's income. I realise this is a forecast by experts and will therefore be dismissed by some. The question is how can we possibly accept such an appalling risk?