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If there was another EU referendum...

(1001 Posts)
Pollaidh Tue 03-Jul-18 18:13:46

Would those who voted Leave still do so? And why? I am genuinely trying to look outside my Remain bubble, but the logic of Leave still continues to elude me. I am asking Gransnet because apparently older people were most likely to vote to Leave.

nigglynellie Mon 06-Aug-18 12:43:10

devisive! grrr!

Joelsnan Mon 06-Aug-18 12:47:48

nigglynellie
So true!
However there are so many poor losers who dont appear to understand a democratic political process. My children used to throw their toys down and stamp out crying occassionally when they didnt get the outcome they wanted...and then they grew up smile

Allygran1 Mon 06-Aug-18 13:11:36

The main issue once again comes down to accepting the majority voting system. Do you Bridgeit, Varian, crystaltipps, accept that the UK uses a majority voting system?

When you say Bridgeit" ^whilst standing on the deck of a ship called Rule Britannia waving a uanion Jack^".
Why so anti British? Totally exaggerated and typical of the "message" of Nationalism gone mad that you and others like to put out. You are wrong!

What I, and certainly those I know and talk to, believe in our Democracy. That Democracy depends on rule of Law, honouring majority vote, and protecting our system from anarchists.

There is a hugh difference between trying to bring down a democratic majority vote, attempting through subversive activity to overturn the results of two Elections and the normal campaigning for change using the political system.
You then say:
"^Others take a more pragmatic view realising that the long reaching tentacles of the EU,(good & bad) will take many years to untangle & straighten out^".

This statement is not accurate. According to Bernier 80% of the negotiations are done, the untangling the disconnect/ uncoupling is, and has been going on for two years. There will (maybe) the transition period not to untangle as you put it, but to implement any changes resulting from our agreement's with the EU. It maybe that we have no transition and go WTO.

You then say:
"^Then & only then can we begin to Mould our country which is good for The Many, Not the Few^" !!

Has it not occurred to you that the vote Leave, came from a cross section of society, including a cross section of political allegiances. It is truly representative of the people by majority.

The General Election saw two Political party's who stood on Brexit mandates put back into power as Government and Opposition. The Government with the largest increase share of the vote since the 1980's. How much more can that tell you that the majority are "the many not the few".

You say:
"^To believe otherwise is pointless, what frightens me the most is the absolutely blinkered certainty on both sides that they are right,but there is no right or wrong^"

Sadly this is easy to say and sound's good, but when you say: "^There is no right or wrong^" it is simply wrong! Of course their is right and wrong. It is right that the majority of the British people a cross section of the population and political allegiances voted in the Referendum by majority to Leave the EU. It is right that the majority of the population presumably a cross section also voted in a General Election to put two parties back in power in Government and Opposition who stood for election on Brexit mandates.

You say:
"^Either way this country will survive and adapt^".

Yes it will!

You then add:
"^ but we need to remember it was an emotive vote^".

What does emotive mean? A word banded about as a cover all, designed to diminish the leave vote and the General Election vote. Emotive:
arousing or able to arouse intense feeling.
"^animal experimentation is an emotive subject^^synonyms:inflammatory, controversial, contentious, emotional^

Why do you say it was an emotive vote? Why is it that the voters are accused of 'emotive' decision making. The only emotive people I saw were the campaigners on both sides. We the voters were busy getting on with our lives and doing our own decision making. Since then the 'emotive' behaviour of the Pro Europe groups as they are now known, have become increasingly determined and I would say at all cost's to over turn the majority vote and threaten Democracy. There are other groups that have hijacked the Remain campaign groups for their own ends.

The question was Leave or Remain, Yes or N0. The extensive campaigns that became emotive, and by that I choose to use the meaning, inflammatory, contentious, not emotional for many, but maybe for some. We will never no what motivated each individual voter. The polls are often wrong, and depend on people giving their reason's truly. I never give pollsters my true reasons, and nor do lot's of people. They earn a small fortune from asking us to tell them what we think and why we think it. Why should we feel compelled to do so!

The result is that we the British people voted to leave..and then confirmed that at the General Election.

You say:
"^That is why there will always be discontent, because there is no Promised Land^".

Why will there always be discontent? You say "^because there is no Promised Land^". The EU is portrayed as the "promised land", as we have seen it is not, so I fully agree with you there is no Promised Land.

As we see from some remain campaign groups, or as they are now styling themselves Pro Europe or Peoples vote, who continue to believe that the EU is the promised land as you put it.

The majority of the British people do not agree and believe that we can take back control of our borders, control of our laws, and control of our ability to trade in a free market worldwide, and recover our Sovereignty. No one has promised that recovering our sovereign rights from a Trading organisations called the EU, pretending to be a Nation, pretending to have citizens by issuing us all with a Passport saying EU Citizen. There is no EU Country! There are 27 Country's who have through trading agreements to trade in a single market surrendered by stealth their sovereign laws, rights. All are tied into trading agreements that have hooks that demand they obey regulations, the four so called freedoms, which really are enslavement to the EU. No one can leave as we are finding without enormous barriers being placed in their way. As we see this so called "promised land" created by the EU using 27 Country's lumped into what is known as the EEA, is disintegrating before our very eyes.
Whatever Brexit brings, it will be of our own making and to our own benefit or not, and more importantly our own majority choice. This Country works on a Democratic system of majority vote. Contrary to what has been said about the "many not the few", it has to be for all!

Sorry I am having trouble getting the italics symbols to work! Not much time so please excuse the slap dash!

crystaltipps Mon 06-Aug-18 13:16:27

news.sky.com/story/europe-really-doesnt-need-us-as-much-as-we-need-them-11462776

Interesting piece from Sky News

Bridgeit Mon 06-Aug-18 13:19:54

I think it is just as immature to make comments that detract from the real issues that need to be addressed in an adult manner.
Neither remainers or leavers should be described as needing to grow up.Both have real concerns and beliefs, it is your comments that sound childish
Joelsnan, your latest post read like: nah nah we won, whilst sticking your tongue out!

Bridgeit Mon 06-Aug-18 13:23:10

Ally, quite clearly you did not read my post in it’s entirity, or perhaps didn’t understand it.

MamaCaz Mon 06-Aug-18 13:23:29

The majority voting system is acceptable (sort of, though PR would be better imo) for general elections for one very big reason: WE GET TO VOTE AGAIN IN FIVE YEARS TIME, often less!

That is democracy.

But no second vote on Brexit, no matter how bad it gets!

Bridgeit Mon 06-Aug-18 13:34:33

Ally, believing in our voting system & accepting the out come is a different scenario than a country voting on emotion, patriotism & a wing & a prayer. Whilst many people may have had facts to hand or found out as much as they could about the prospects of leaving or remaining, it should not be denied that there was a lot of social unrest & propaganda around this particular decision.

varian Mon 06-Aug-18 13:35:00

It is utterly shocking that some leavers accuse remainers of being "sore losers" as if we were discussing a game in the playground.

Surely, surely you must have realised by now that if any kind of brexit, especially a "no deal" brexit, is permitted to go ahead, we will ALL be losers, unless you are a multi-millionaire speculator like the heroes of brexit. Are you????

Bridgeit Mon 06-Aug-18 13:36:36

Well said Varian.

Joelsnan Mon 06-Aug-18 13:37:04

Bridgeit
I do not go in for direct jibing the comment was non specific. Did the comment hit a nerve?

Bridgeit Mon 06-Aug-18 13:40:04

You just did Joelsnan!

suzied Mon 06-Aug-18 13:43:00

Seems like its leavers crying about not getting the Brexit they want...blaming the EU for everything including the government's mismanagement. Brexit supporters on here just banging on about the will of the people etc , still can't tell us what the benefits will be for the everyday person.

Joelsnan Mon 06-Aug-18 13:43:36

varian
That is your, and those who have your perspective on this issue only. There are equally as many and potentially more who have a different perspective. We either agree to disagree and allow the democratic orocess to proceed, or we spiral into an anarcic society.
What a laughing stock we must look to the rest of the world as the seat of democracy being humiliated by those who will not accept a democartic result.

Joelsnan Mon 06-Aug-18 13:47:17

suzied
You must not have been reading the other threads on this subject.

Bridgeit Mon 06-Aug-18 13:49:40

Is that how you view life Joelsnan, ?I think that wither or not we are being laughed at is of little importance,the changes that affect people’s lives are of the utmost importance, not false pride!

Joelsnan Mon 06-Aug-18 13:50:15

Bridget
Did i specify which losers? Did i mention you or anyone in particular?.

Bridgeit Mon 06-Aug-18 13:52:14

?

suzied Mon 06-Aug-18 13:52:33

Trouble is the democratic process has not been comprehensively revealed - i.e. this is what it will mean for the average person, rather than cliches about sovereignty which mean nothing to someone who just wants to do a days work and put food on the table. its all very well to say it will all be great in 50 years time - really? who can say? Yes we do look a laughing stock to the rest of the world - infighting in the government and deep divisions in the country, leaving the biggest free trading market in the world to satisfy a minority of extremists, and having not a clue about what is going to happen.

Greta Mon 06-Aug-18 14:08:39

If, in years to come, Brexit turns out to be a big mistake Leave-voters will not admit it. It will be the EU's fault.

We are the laughing stock of other nations. As my brother-in-law said when he first heard the Referendum result: It's true what they say then: Mad dog and Englishmen.

petra Mon 06-Aug-18 14:19:54

the state our country has been brought to
From the Gov.uk website.
World demand for first class British goods and services continue to grow around the globe according to new figures published by ONS today 18 April 2018.
Uk exports rose from 59.4 billion to 62.6 billion between March 2017- February 2018.
HSBC's new trade forecast also predicted that uk goods and services exports will increase by 10% in 2018, the farstest pace of growth since 2011.
The uk economy is entering a period of un presidented economic opportunity with the latest figures showing a surge in exports together with optimism for continued export growth years ahead
The uk also remains a strong destination for investment with record numbers of Foriegn Direct investment (FDI) projects into the uk in 2016-2017.
The department of international trade recorded 2,265 FDI direct investment projects up 2% on the previous year - estimated to have created or safe guarded more than * 108,000 jobs*
Now be honest, does this sound as if we are going to hell in a handcart grin

suzied Mon 06-Aug-18 14:20:26

This is why we are a laughing stock-
Robert Peston @ peston
We’ve got an official opposition tearing itself apart over antisemitism, the founder of the EDL running rings around the judiciary and a government negotiating a Brexit plan that its own MPs and ministers tell me is dead. When will we pull ourselves together, as a nation?

But don't worry, your blue passport will get you an extra special long wait at passport control. And no deal could lead to continued freedom of movement anyway. Something for everyone in there.

Allygran1 Mon 06-Aug-18 14:33:41

Bridgeit, ^Bridgeit Mon 06-Aug-18 13:34:33
Ally, believing in our voting system & accepting the out come is a different scenario than a country voting on emotion, patriotism & a wing & a prayer.^

No it isn't Bridgeit. Our Democracy amongst other things depends on the majority voting system being accepted. That is what it means majority have it. Why people vote is entirely up to them, your assumptions and presumptions about a "Country voting on emotion, patriotism, & a wing & a prayer" as you put it, are introduced by you to give the impression that the vote was somehow not based on intellectual or rational decisions, that is so arrogant Bridgeit.

You and I cannot say why people voted, what their motivations where. Clearly their was a lot of emotive reaction to the possibility of leaving the EU and there still is from the campaign groups who wish to overturn the democratic majority vote of the people of this Country in two Elections. Why?

To want to overthrow a democratic vote, two democratic majority votes, through subversive, propaganda and self interest groups is nothing short of anarchist behaviour. Since none of the groups are representing a Political Party, merely self interest groups, they are not offering an alternative Government, they are not offering an alternative mandate at the next General Election, they are simply demanding a Peoples vote to overturn if they can, the referendum vote to leave the EU. In the process they have stooped to infiltration of opinion sites, tweeting groups to undermine the Government negotiations on Brexit, and every dirty trick in the books as far as I can see. Even blaming the Russians for Brexit...talk about Fake News.

Now it is OK to have a different view, it is not OK to try to overthrow a Democratic majority vote of two Election through lies, misleading information, subversive activities, scaremongering, name calling and demonising the majority voters.

You also seem to have a problem with people having "pride" in this Country, maybe that is because of your age, your background, I could not possibly say. However, there is nothing at all wrong with being proud of ones Country or saying so, even though some would like to make 'Pride" in ones Country into some sort of Colonial Nationalistic narrow minded view point. The past is another Country of two Centuries ago, let's leave it there. The future is Brexit, it is up to us to make it good for our Children and the future generations.

Bringing up these old chestnuts of "nationalism" in whatever veiled form is very boring. I expect a better level of debate from you Bridgeit.

mostlyharmless Mon 06-Aug-18 14:36:57

Quite! Mad dogs and Englishmen! Britain is a laughing stock. A marginal majority for Brexit two years ago. But no one agrees on what sort of Brexit they voted for.

Did they vote for a no deal Brexit which will take a generation to recover from sort of Brexit? A WTO Brexit? A Norway style EFTA Brexit? A Canada plus plus plus (taking eight years to negotiate) Brexit? A kowtowing to USA with Trade deals allowing privatisation of our NHS Brexit? A fantasy return to the British Empire complete with blue passports creating lengthy queues at customs and airports sort of Brexit? A No EU immigrants allowed (meaning a severe shortage of doctors, fruit pickers and nursing staff) Brexit? A Building houses on green field sites so that rural people can afford to stay in the countryside and pick vegetables Brexit?

None of the Brexiteers on here seem to agree what Brexit means. And for some reason Brexiteers are extremely upset about the idea of a People’s vote on the final deal. Not interested in knowing what voters think about the final deal? If they are convinced that the Referendum and a General Election (in which the Tories lost their majority) proved a great desire to Leave then surely a People’s Vote will only confirm that! What are they afraid of?

But it’s the Remainers who are Anarchists? Really?

Allygran1 Mon 06-Aug-18 14:42:35

Varian if as you claim, as a remain voter you are not a sore loser as you put it. Why are you unable to accept the Democratic majority vote of two Elections for this Country to exit the EU?

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