If there was another EU referendum...

Contrary to some post's about war in Europe being avoided because of a "trading bloc". The formation of the EU was of it's time, that time has past, it is in the past: the last Century, and the EU has not moved on. As part of that trading bloc, the EU has ensnared through access to the single market, via treaties and agreements that when they come up for renewal, have clauses and hooks, to ensure that EEA and EFTA country's are compelled to become ever deeper embedded into the 'ever closer union' structure of all or nothing culture of the EU.

With ever increasing involvement with the single market/ customs union, the Sovereign state of each Country is diminished until it no longer exists., completely absorbed, with illusionary 'domestic policy' left to the individual Country's, of course there is a clause that also removes that unreal power as well. All, disguised in the small print, under the heading of trade in a single market.

It's important to focus on the current dissatisfaction of the citizens of the EU, in Italy, Germany, Hungary, Bulagaria, Slovakia, Greece. The politics of the EEA country's has polarised to extreme politics, as a backlash against the EU's free movement of people, economic austerity, high unemployment, pressure on housing, services, education, health services because of unplanned population expansion in some country's. The formation of ghetto's where dissatisfaction and disillusioned legal migrants feel excluded. The EU has stagnated since 2008. In the EU's attempt to create a United Nations of Europe, making itself an unelected 'state', using a single market access and open borders as a 'come and buy me' tempter, in this it has become revealed for what it is, an unelected closed shop capitalist corporate organisation pretending to be a democracy, and what is worse some have all fallen for it and are trapped in it.

There is one word it is a very small word that indicates an unknown: IF!

If this happens, if that doesn't happen, if, if, if. Lets stop iffing about. Look at the fact's, look to the future, and plan for all eventualities, which is what the Government is attempting to do. The best management of change is to expect problems, plan for them, expect the plan to need adjusting, adjust and move on. This Country is facing a remarkable, admirable step into the twenty first century, some will come kicking and screaming as we have seen, other will walk cautiously, carefully in full awareness that the path might be bumpy, there might be bandits on the way, but knowing that society cannot stand still and willing to take those step's forward for the future of the up and coming generations.
The EU is a failing system, it has not adapted, it will not adapt, it depends on capturing it's citizens under false pretences, it disguises it's malevolence in benevolence and hopes no one lift's the curtain to see that the "Wizard" is just a man, and not a very nice man at that, he has deceived and groomed Country's into captivity.

Well said Allyg ? Its exactly what I have been trying to clumsily articulate. I feel that the EU will eventually collapse under the weight of its own bureaucracy, and civil unrest, and that we need to be well clear when this inevitably happens. For me, it's nothing to do with going back to the past, or hating foreigners, but has everything to do with looking beyond the EU and to a bright, free future (there's a world out there!) without the shackles and the slightly sinister embrace of the EU.

Thank you Allyg. That’s it exactly.

have you looked at a map recently?

Nigglynellie and NfkDumpling

I voted Remain, but if voting now, I would vote Leave. Ally has fully articulated the reasons for my change of heart.

and with the shackles and VERY sinister embrace of Trump's America ...
civil unrest on the way indeed...

Presidents come and go as will Trump. The EU commissioners will always be with us, one way or another!! ?

The sheer lack of logic and coherence of these arguments is staggering!
Not so much articulate as incomprehensible.
It's this acceptance of naive head-in-the-sand nonsense that got us where we are now.
But let's follow the brexit mantra that everything will turn out just fine, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary!

I presume you mean inarticulate?! Always as well to get it correct else you risk being incomprehensible!!

You presume wrongly. At 20.36 yesterday, you used the word articulate as a verb. I assumed that using it as an adjective would be comprehensible.

So the EU and the world are now aware that the Referendum was fraudulent. And they wake up today of images of drunken Brits with thei *its out and other smashing an ambulance, and an (Swedish) IKEA store, evidence of damage, sexually verbal assaults on Police, and more...

The World is not enamoured with the UK just now, for sure.

However you used 'articulate', mcem, I completely agree with you at 22.51 yesterday

if you say so!!

I voted to leave then and would still vote to leave now. Politicians lie that's hardly news but I tried hard not to listen to them. I have wanted to leave for years and still do, just a bit tired of being told I'm a racist etc when I'm not and never have been. I don't resort to name calling just because I disagree with someone's point of view and I wish the politicians would just get on with it and get us out.

FlexibleFriend I agree with you completely.

Jura2, sorry to say this but I really do not know what your talking about. Can you expand your comments?

You seem to be again knocking the UK? Comparing apples with pears. What has the bad behaviour of a few 'Brits" as you call them got to do with the Referendum? Also, I have asked you before, and ask you again, can you say why you constantly refer to the Referendum as "fraudulent"?

You might also want to say how you know as you said "the world is not enamoured with the UK right now that's for sure"?

These are bold statements that need factual support.

Allygran, how many times do you expect me to make a list of the reasons why the Referendum was fraudulent? Unlike you, some of us just don't copy and paste constantly, not even our own posts.

Just come back from a lovely day out with friends, locals and also expats from all over ... they all commented on the behaviour of some of the England supporters, going n a rampage in an IKEA store, smashing up the place singing 'it's coming home' - overs damaging an ambulance, standing on the roof, young women showing their boobs and overs kicking the vehcle, with ambulance staff inside. Their comment was ' don't they realise the damage they do to the image of Britain' ... I know it is a tiny minority, but just too many went on drunken rampage here and in Russia and on holiday resorts, all over the world, behaving like **s.

How do you stop them?! Any suggestions would be howled down by liberal lefties and laughed at by the yobs! So we just have to put up with it I guess until someone comes up with a cunning plan that curbs yob behaviour but doesn't offend liberal sensitivities!! Difficult!!

What the hell have football hooligans got to do with Brexit? People behaved like total sh!ts long before the referendum and will continue to behave like it long afterwards. Their behaviour doesn't reflect on me, they have nothing to do with why I want to leave the EU Why would they, they're Brits and they'll be with us regardless. They trashed Ikea, they were out of their skulls, so really what's the connection?

jura. Most Brits abhor drunken behaviour for whatever the reason. We're not a country full of mindless idiots. Why are you so keen to sieze every opportunity to paint the UK in a bad light?

Other countries in the EU have their fair share of yobs and drunks and according to my Swiss sis-in-law, so does Switzerland. You could perhaps jump on their case for a change.

It doesn't sound like much of a lovely day out to me if all you talked about is Brexit and the bad behaviour of a minority.

We have a lot to be proud of in this country.

Have I totally miss-interpreted this thread? What have a few drunken so called 'football fans' got to do with Brexit.

I think that those of us who voted leave that I know, are not anti European. It is the whole bureaucracy of the EU, the fact that it has become the French & German way or no way!!!

I am proud to call myself British, fed up with cowtowing to the likes of Merkel et al.

If you read a multiple of newspapers you will find that both sides crossed the line during the lead up to the Advisory Referendum.

Oh I know Merlot, I know...
but this is the image that comes through. On holiday in Crete, our week in a very good Hotel was ruined by a drunken wedding party from Yorkshire.. making a massive dim around the pool, shouting, bombing the pool when others were swimming. Their lude comments, stories of their one night stands, etc. They made me laugh as they were actually quite friendly, apart from an old man who tried to beat the cats with his wife's stick - glad his own party told him to stop. But the other holiday makers from France, Belgium, Italy, Germany, Slovenia, Litania and ... Switzerland were not happy ... and commented and complained about those Brits, probably Brexiters (they said) ...who 'always ruin our holidays' and make a life a misera back home with their stag dos, etc.

And THEY, not me ... as I lived in the UK long enough to know it is not the norm... who linked it to 'Brexit style behaviour'.. and link it they did. You may not see it ... but they did.

How do you stop them? Well te footage of the ones trashing IKEA and the ambulance are clear as a bell- find out who they are, and punish them accordingly. Make them pay for damage + community service.

And why has no-one officially, police or Government, had to guts to clearly condemn their behaviour, on TV, publicly.