Labour Party and anti semitism

Biblical times - Abraham had 2 main sons, Jacob and Ishmael.
Jacob was the father of the Jews, Ishmael of the Arabs/Muslims. Both claim their right to the own the Holy Land.

Isn't it just as wrong to dismiss the posts by 2 Jewish posters as it is to dismiss the words of an MP

Surely nobody is dismissing anything on the grounds of religious affiliation?
Or have I missed something?

And now Frank Field has resigned the Labour whip
www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-45359009

Fennel I dont think I did suggest you denied anti Semitic exists, apologies if I wrote something implying that. I do understand the Biblical references, the claims on the Holy Land. I have visited Jerusalem only once twenty years ago. That beautiful old city felt like the place where the three major faiths meet. Frank field has resigned and is sitting as an independent labour mp. He despairs at the way allegations of anti semitusm are not being robustly dealt with. He’s an interesting individual with controversial but deeply held views on some subjects. He’s a Leaver whose been threatened with deselection by his local members despite his majority increasing with each election. He’s been a party member for sixty years

If Frank Field has resigned the Labour whip, this should be a signal for other MPs to follow suit. I had the pleasure of meeting him on a couple of occasions to discuss financial/political issues, and he was one of the most genuine and admirable politicians I had the pleasure to meet.

Well said grumpa, he could now be thrown out of the party.

There is a thread for Frank Field, he has spoken of bullying to, I posted Corbyn and Tom Watson’s response

Fennel

" I never said that antisemitism doesn't exist, just that fortunately it's not too bad where we live at the moment.

I saw an example of it today, not resulting in violence or bad words TG."
---

I am pleased to hear where you live things are ' not too bad ' where you live at the moment .

I am interested to note that you say you saw an example of
verbal antisemitism and how that sits with your previous view " The whole thing has been blown up out of all proportion by the rightwing press. "

Did you ever get to see the debate in Parliament mentioned re antisemitism, to hear from the Labour MP's to hear from the horses mouth as they say ?

Pogs - this is what I wrote
"I saw an example of it today, not resulting in violence or bad words TG."
I read your report of the speech by the labour MP and it is awful, I agree. I have no explanation for the apparently different experiences. Except possibly she placed herself in a prominent position, which she should be able to do.
There are some viciously anti semitic, anti black, racist groups in this country, I'm aware of that. but I don't agree that they're typical british subjects.

And POGS - what is your stance on the subject?
Have you any suggestions how to deal with the problem?

Fennel

I have noted the increase in antisemitism in the Labour Party , amongst other troubling issues, since the Jeremy for Leader/Momentum group was formed with the soul purpose of backing the man Jeremy Corbyn not the Labour Party . This was commonly called ' The Party within a party '.

I have been left astounded by the denials by those who refuse to accept the words, experiences, pleas by Labour Party MP's and councillors who have made known their direct contact with bullying, anti-semetic issues etc. from within their own Labour Party/Momentum activists. Over the years since Corbyn became Leader they have either chosen to defend the behaviour or at times condoned it's use to give / show their backing for Corbyn and I find that possibly the most alarming of all.

Perhaps I could use an old post of mine from another thread discussing antisemitsm within Labour to explain a tad more of where I am coming from with regard to the issue of antisemitism in general.

POGS Thu 17-Mar-16 13:53:43

" Saying Israel is brutal against Palestine is not being Anti Semetic. Opposing the State of Israel 's continued occupation , crimes against the Palestinian People, violation of International Law is nothing to do with Anti Semitism. Nor is mentioning violation of International Law by Palestinians against Israel being Anti Palestinian. They are facts. That is not Anti Semitism ."

As for what to do about it denying the existence within any party is ridiculous but not accepting the swell of anicdotal evidence concerning Labour/Momentum activists from within the Labour Party is part of the problem. So acceptence would be a start.

I think Corbyn and those who are in his inner circle which is for the most part Momentum connected ,not the PLP , are part of the problem and thereby hangs the tale of the division within the Labour Party itself. Labour has been looking like the party it was in the 1980's since the election of Corbyn . The 1980's was a time of nasty, bullying individuals and groups intent on making the Labour party move to the far left/Trotsky doctrine. With the aid of Social Media, the power of the tech savvy activists the resurgence of the 1980's is alive and kicking.

Thankyou - I agree with most of what you say.
Especially that criticism of the Israeli govt. is not anti semitism.
Sadly this situation has gone on since time immoral (as my husband says.)
I can't see Trump's anticipated peace deals making any difference.

It is not going to go away.

news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-is-an-anti-semite-ex-chief-rabbi-jonathan-sacks-claims-11484443

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-zionist-enoch-powell-antisemitism-rabbi-jonathan-sacks-labour-jewish-leadership-a8511391.html
sorry, I can't seem to copy and paste a portion of this, only the link.

I don't think that the Independent is right wing, is it?

Fennel I am shocked and saddened that you have already experienced anti-Semitism in your new home in the NE(?unless I am wrong)
N Bucks is hardly the back of beyond but I have never ever heard anti-Semitic sentiments uttered in the 34 years we have lived here.
What is England coming to?

Oh dear, Maw - I phrased it badly.
I'll send a pm to tell you what it was. I don't think it was antisemitic.
But I did have an upsetting experience when we lived here in the '90s. I was sitting on a wall watching workmen dealing with a major water leak. 2 little boys came and sat beside me, I started to talk to them. The older one said "don't talk to her, she's a Jew" and they both ran away.
Maybe from what their parents said.

Did anybody watch SKY News showing Gordon Brown live speaking at the Jewish Labour Conference earlier today?

He spoke very well.

He said:

The definition, which has been signed by 31 countries, states that criticism of Israel cannot be regarded as anti-Semitic.

"I’ve read the document and it’s absolutely clear. And people are not telling the truth when they say something else "

The document says specifically in its first paragraph that criticism of Israel is not to be taken as anti-Semitism. It says specifically that you can criticise the government. That you can support the Palestinian cause for a two state solution, but you must never allow the discrimination and prejudice that is part of the definition’s desire to remove"

I like the " And people are not telling the truth when they say something else ". This is the fall back position for those who defend the Labour Party not adopting the internationally recognised definition of anti-Semitism in it's present form.

I thought his speech was great, he was armed with facts, I know he and Sarah’s charity works in Palastine. It was such a joy to listen to a true socialist again. He is a good man

I listened to Gordon Brown, then read the comments under the Facebook link. There was the occasional “well said Gordon” but a torrent of abuse from people accusing him of being blue labour, being paid blood money by the Israeli government etc etc .
I despair that the part I’ve voted for fifty years has become a place where vitriolic abuse is directed towards anyone who dares to criticise the current leadership.

That’s Corbynites for you. Envy and hate spreading like a cancer

Here is the definition that I have found which I think is the one under discussion.

“Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”

Then the document goes on to say (outside this definition)

To guide IHRA in its work, the following examples may serve as illustrations:

Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity

This above is BEFORE that quite from Brown posts by POGS so why did he leave out that bit?

“Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.”

The bit in bold has been omitted by whom?

I still do not understand why criticism is being targetted at the Labour Party for considering amendments to the IHRA definition of anti-semitism when an all party select committee enquiring into anti-semitism recommended additional clauses
24. We broadly accept the IHRA definition, but propose two additional clarifications to ensure that freedom of speech is maintained in the context of discourse about Israel and Palestine, without allowing antisemitism to permeate any debate. The definition should include the following statements:
• It is not antisemitic to criticise the Government of Israel, without additional evidence to suggest antisemitic intent.
• It is not antisemitic to hold the Israeli Government to the same standards as other liberal democracies, or to take a particular interest in the Israeli Government’s policies or actions, without additional evidence to suggest antisemitic intent.
25. We recommend that the IHRA definition, with our additional caveats, should be formally adopted by the UK Government, law enforcement agencies and all political parties, to assist them in determining whether or not an incident or discourse can be regarded as antisemitic.
There have also been a number of criticisms by lawyers about the wording (including some Jewish ones). It seems odd that the UK government should not adopt the committee's recommendations.And even odder that the Labour Party should be vilified for doing what was recommended.

The NEC are to vote on the omissions in the IHRA, Corbyn can relax

Fennel, it was Isaac not Jacob. Jacob was the son of Isaac.