Boris Johnson's Latest 'Gaff'

I think it is Bullingdon, not ton.

The "daleks/letterboxes cannot stand up for themselves" idea rather supports the point that many people claim about dalek and letterbox-like shrouds: that they are oppressive.

The trouble women get into in Iran (like being jailed) for taking off their hijabs supports it too.

Baggs
The Iranian women are protesting against those who require them to wear Shaila's (headscarves) not veils. This requirement only occurred after the Islamic revolution. There is no requirement for them to wear the veil and the majority do not, some do because it is a family tradition. Even the Shaila is worn exposing some of the hair. In the UK there is no government requirement to wear either the headscarf or veil because we are a secular not Islamic state.

*joelsnan^, my point is that there exist impositions that force women and girls to wear hair and/face coverings and that the existence of such impositions, whether state or family imposed, support the argument that wearers of such things “cannot stand up for themselves” because if they try to they are punished for it.

Baggs
But those who have chosen to culturally appropriate this form of dress are in the main British Pakistani or even British women whose parents do not wear this form of clothing so it must be personal choice rather than pressure.
In the Middle East women do wear the Sheila (scarf) and Abaya (black dress) as this is their national dress just as the men wear the dishdasha. They were asked to wear this by the country’s founder as a show of respect for their country and they obliged. A few women wear the veil when outdoors, but it is banned in the workplace and those who will not remove their veil are not employed or sacked.

Yes, I understand what you're saying, jnan. I'm not sure I agree about there being no cultural pressure on the women who have, as you put it, "chosen to culturally appropriate this form of dress". Since it is only Muslims who use that form of dress, it would not appear to be the usual kind of fashion choice that can appeal to anyone in a population, which makes me think there is some underlying negativity in the choice if choice it is. In an open European society covering your face when out in public is, as a letter-writer to the Telegraph said, "a public discourtesy". Scarves that do not cover the face are just a form of hat and not a problem any more than a kippah or a flat cap is.

I haven't read the whole of that Tgraph letter as I do not have a subscription to that paper but the term "public discourtesy" is very apt.

How on earth can anyone know that someone would be ‘pretty’ underneath a veil? ???

They could be toothless, or sporting a moustache or even scarred.

Yes, fair point. I agree, she might not be'pretty'. I DO think (unless she's seriously disfigured) she would be PRETTIER than at present!

I'm asking myself what would be reaction if I wore something people felt inappropriate. Not just wacky (most folk are pretty tolerant tho' I 've had the odd thing if I'm in full hippy garb.) But actually WRONG - let's say I wobble down High St in a micro-bikini; attend funeral in neon clothes) .I think people would say something, whether they just nudge each other, stare, whisper or actually come right out with it. How would I respond? Well if it was just a comment on style, and I thought I looked great, I'd probably ignore it (tho a LOT of reaction would make me take a look in mirror & re-evaluate.) But if I felt people were actively upset, irritated, hostile, then I'd compromise a little. I spent holiday in a religious area of Turkey in a headscarf. Yes, if I had to adopt a burqa in Saudi then I would (it's their country.) And I expect people to be sensitive to what is just OTT here. It's NOT a comment on style, it puts women back into Dark Ages.

I find it amazing that post 'doesnt believe I said it' !! Hope I'm not so weak kneed!! The lady didn't say anything. Had she done, I would have politely engaged with her and tried to explain.

The lady didn't say anything

Really unbelievable. Who on earth do you think you are?

Confident in my beliefs, oldbatty!

As I recall, there is at present a lively public discussion (within MeToo discussion) to the effect that a woman or girl out in public should not have to be subjected to a barrage of comments from males on her figure and how to improve her appearance. It is widely considered very unwelcome, unpleasant, and quite harassing by women and girls.

It does not magically become acceptable when done by one woman to another.

I do not believe that most women are subject to barrages of unwelcome comments from men. I think the #MeToo movement is doing doing a lot of damage.

I'm afraid I don't believe that either.

I think the #MeToo movement is doing doing a lot of damage

I agree Baggs

No one knows what lies behind the veil/covered face. A man could lurk beneath, who knows?

It's not about female appearance: objections are to the practice of face covering, which is anti-social and flying in the face of long held western custom to speak to each other face to face.

Communication through reading facial expressions is fundamental to humanity.

If you invite your Muslim friends round for a cuppa, you have a great chance for face to face time and chat.

Mine are a bit too far away to pop in.

I chat I don't know; if they were wearing a niqab or burka I may feel they were putting a barrier up between me and themselves.

I chat I don't know
I have no idea what happened there!

I chat to people I don't know

muffinthemoo- I don't think there's any issue at all with people being pilloried for their clothing. I experience practically nothing- it's quite likely attractive young things get their charms noticed by men but that's a whole different thing (I dimly recall the glory days of wolf whistles when I went out - made my day, wish men would do it now. Note to any male readers: DO whistle at at least one lady a day!) I wouldnt DREAM of telling ANYONE that I didnt like their style, colour scheme etc--but as I say, this isnt about a fashion I despise but either a) a deliberate effort to alienate the rest of us or b) horrific instance of female suppression. And a female of either groupneeds to re-think her attitude. And that's all I have to say.

Me too.
Its the best way to get to know people.

People who wear niqabs or burkas are putting a barrier up. Such coverings, as Imam Taj Hargey says, "inhibit community cohesion". Wearing such things is indicative of a refusal to integrate. While that may not be the fault of the wearers, it still is what it seems—a barrier.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Iamnotarobot
Who did you say you are? Or maybe you didn't say?
Your style is so much like that of another poster.
I'm confused.

And to Baggs and others.
The barrier could also be a protection against the increasingly liberal style of female dressing in Western culture.
The reaction and protection of their men from temptation.

So was the mother-in-law of my Oxforshire next-door-neighbour (an immigrant from Pakistan married to her cousin) being racist when she said her grandchildren couldn't come into my house because they were not allowed, according to her, to go into the houses of "other people", i.e. non-Muslims?

It felt like it from where I was.

Fortunately, the MiL's ruling did not stop my neighbour from inviting me and Minibaggs into her house, and we had plenty of friendly exchanges over the garden wall. Actually, now I think of it, MrsNextDoor would even ask MrBaggs over to remove frogs from our pond that had wandered into her garden. I think MiL would have died if she'd known that! A man from the Other People Tribes. Oh, horrors!

Yes, fennel, some people argue that, but just showing one's face in public is not immodest. One can still dress modestly and, in fact, most westerners do.