Should the electorate have the final say on Brexit?

Exactly MamaCaz, To me it would be a positive move that the electorate would have confidence in. This one had the feel of a knee jerk reaction to people’s concerns.

Sorry Lemon but “Lemon and Associed views” would not look good on your letterheads so I kept it short.
M

Excuse the typo on Associate
My bl** arthritics fingers play tricks.
M

"This one had the feel of a knee jerk reaction to people's concerns" as would a second referendum.

The Nation had a say in the referendum MarthaBeck. Brexit isn't being imposed by dogma, it was voted for by the majority who could be bothered to vote. There would be "severe anger and possible backlash" if there's an attempt to overturn the result.

What planet is Robertson living on? If membership of the EU was as wonderful as he claims, the referendum result would have been to remain.

I am a Lemon associate and I voted remain - just to set the record straight. The electorate voted to leave.

Theresa May has stated that there will be NO second vote and I don't expect her to change her mind. But although it's her call Parliament can overrule that if they wanted to, that is unlikely, the polls at present don't show any great change in voters opinion either.

Until we see her final deal it impossible to predict what MPs are going to do, to avoid a hard Brexit they may accept Mays plan, red lines blurred. Regardless of the outcome TM will accept the verdict of Parliament and stay as PM and make the best of it - Brexit means Brexit.

Me too Kitty, I voted remain. How on earth could we trot back to the EU and say...whoops sorry about the upset we’ve changed our minds!
For the record I would change my mind and vote leave now.

TM is running scared of the Right Wing Brexiteers. Yes the referendum was to Leave but few of us really understood the issue properly. We all know much more now and the demographic of the electorate has changed. The country or at least parliament should have the opportunity to make an informed choice,

A significant number of Leave voters simply wanted to kick the Tories in the teeth so voted against Cameron/Osborne rather than against Europe. Many more youngster now qualify to vote and it is their future which Brexit will harm, they did not have a say in 2016. Quite a few older voters many of whom voted Leave have since passed away.

No, we need to trust our politicians to carry out the democratic decision of the people - right or wrong.

If they go to the country asking yet again we could be in a state of limbo for years and that is not good for the future of this country or for the EU itself.

Indecisiveness if not a good trait.

" Quite a few older voters many of whom voted Leave have since passed away."

How bloody inconsiderate the old people can be!

Yes. The first referendum was advisory. The electorate are now much more aware of the implications of Brexit. A second referendum on the terms would be the democratic thing to do. A final, binding referendum.

POGS, your astute observation re the elderly made me laugh out loud. May I be spared to vote in the second referendum.

Smileless
The Nation had a say in the referendum MarthaBeck. Brexit isn't being imposed by dogma, it was voted for by the majority who could be bothered to vote. There would be "severe anger and possible backlash" if there's an attempt to overturn the result.

I really don't understand why a second vote is seen as "an attempt to overturn the result". The use of the word 'overturn' is so emotive, as if trying to suggest that anarchic forces would be behind it, which is clearly not the case, as it would be a perfectly democratic vote.
If Brexiters are confident that the majority of people would still vote to leave the EU, even once the full implications of this are known, why don't they welcome it as the opportunity to reinforce the original vote?

Well said, MamaCaz.

Cindersdad
significant number of Leave voters simply wanted to kick the Tories in the teeth
How do you know, please elaborate.

From talking to people from Leave voting areas. In the North East where austerity hit hard many people had had enough of the Tories. Others voted purely on immigration without any further considerations. Too many youngsters who could have voted simply didn't and now deeply regret their 2016 apathy.

The under 18's in 2016 who could now vote would almost vote to stay.

WW2 broke out 20 years after WW1 and there has been 70 years of peace since, cracking the EU will make conflict in Europe more likely and no one wants that.

A no deal Brexit looks increasingly likely and that would be very bad for the country. Any deal is worse than staying in.

The electorate has the right to change its mind on such a major issue. Then if they still want to leave so be it.

Cindersdad
Generalisations regarding people’s motives whether to remain or leave are what has caused so much division with regard to this subject.
Yes some may have voted with respect to immigration when the infrastructure within their towns were groaning due to the rapid increase in numbers. This cannot be attributed to racism however many Remainers choose to tag it as such.
Some say it was an anti conservatives vote, however, at the ensuing General Election, despite losing seats, the actual vote for the Conservative party increased.
Some say those who voted leave are of a lower educational level than those who voted otherwise, however, the whole spectrum of education from PhD to none are represented.
Everyone has their own personal reasons for voting as they did and each is as valid as the next persons.
There is no guarantee that remaining in the EU would prevent conflict. There are already political issues with Hungary, Poland and Italy. Populist movements within many other countries are on the ascendancy (even Sweden) maybe by remaining we could be dragged into conflict which is not our concern. There have been many European alliances over the centuries all have eventually collapsed and none have prevented conflict.
Many of those who chose leave recognise this and consider the U.K. is better getting out now and start building international alliances before the inevitable occurs.

I think the EU would be perfectly happy to have us back; for at least two reasons

1) they would retain a market which Leavers have been pointing out that they would be sorry to lose ( though with the trade deals they have made since with Canada and Japan our loss isn't as great as it has been made out to be)

2) They must be as aware as many of us are of the desire of Russia to weaken the EU and be relieved that Russia's attempt to separate the UK from the EU had failed.

We wouldn't, of course, have as much influence as we enjoyed prior to the referendum but I think that would be easier to survive than the economic disaster that leaving without a deal (which looks to be more and more likely) would be.

I'd remind Leavers that Nigel Farage said that 48/52% in favour of Remain would be 'unfinished business'; well, Remainers think much the same way, 48/52% in favour of Leave is unfinished business for them and they are at perfect liberty to try to overturn it. That's 'democracy' too; working to change a situation that one feels is wrong for the country.

I think that whichever way it goes there will be turmoil. But probably less if we stay in than if we leave.

Generalisations regarding people’s motives whether to remain or leave are what has caused so much division with regard to this subject.

They're not 'generalisations', Joelsnan, they are findings from research.

Cindersdad

" WW2 broke out 20 years after WW1 and there has been 70 years of peace since, cracking the EU will make conflict in Europe more likely and no one wants that."

I keep asking when this is brought up but receive no answer Why?

Are you saying because the UK has left ?

Are you saying if the other 27 countries in the EU break apart.?

Do you not believe in NATO ?

Are you saying the UK will start a war with the 27 countries in the EU or the 27 countries in the EU may start a war with the UK?

Norway for example is not in the EU does that equate in your mind to their having been a non member of the EU so likely to cause WW 3?

Joelsnan

" Generalisations regarding people’s motives whether to remain or leave are what has caused so much division with regard to this subject. "

Totally agree .

The generalisation by many, certainly not all, Remain posters on GN or those who spout off in/on the media call those who democratically voted to leave elderly, uneducated, racist, xenophobic, Tories, thrown in with the occasional Brexshitters label.

Nobody asked me for research nor any other purpose who I vote for, how old I am and whether or not I voted Remain or Leave . Has anybody on GN been asked?

I would suspect given the miniscule percentage of those who have been asked ' for research' compared to the 17 million who voted in the Referendum the figures pro rata are worth very little only ' possible ' indicators. Then you have the issue of who and how those polls and ' research ' were carried out. Were they provided by a politically partisan party, were they provided by a Remain or Leave group.

The answer to polls and research can be so skewed in favour of those asking they become visibly partisan and not worth a penny in most cases.

Nobody asked me for research nor any other purpose who I vote for, how old I am and whether or not I voted Remain or Leave . Has anybody on GN been asked?

You do know how research works, with representative samples, don't you POGS ?

The likelihood of any of us being included in a research sample is statistically minute. The fact that you haven't been asked doesn't invalidate the findings.

Maizie d

" You do know how research works, with representative samples, don't you POGS ? "

Of course I know!

I also accept that the pro rata percentage of data collected for research and polls compared to the actual turn out of voter numbers is minimal. I also accept that research and polls can be skewed to favour politically motivated, partisan organisations and therefore under those circumstances hold little to no worth unless you happen to agree with their findings because it suits your own belief then they are deemed to be undeniable facts it would appear.

As for my other point the only way ' factual ' evidence could be applied as to how a person voted /why/age/political persuasion/education etc. is for everybody to have to declare that information.

I remain of the opinion research and polls are being used as ' factual ' information by some to make a case either for Leave or Remain but that is totally flawed and to state Leavers or Remainers are from this that or tuther social group is for the most part used to denigrate those who dare to hold a different opinion .

I think you're impugning the integrity of research and researchers, POGS.

to state Leavers or Remainers are from this that or tuther social group is for the most part used to denigrate those who dare to hold a different opinion

No-one knew at the time of the referendum who had voted for what. Bona fide academic research carried out after the vote has identified certain characteristics of Leave and Remain voters. If either are uncomfortable with the findings it's unfortunate but not a reason to reject them..

However, whatever use has been made of these findings by either 'side', it also remains a fact there will be outliers; the findings do not apply to every Leave or Remain voter.

Of course one should exercise some critical analysis of the source of polls and research but rejecting the lot seems odd. What does one base one's judgements on if one cannot see/rejects the bigger picture?

Good to listen to the views of the Royal College of Nursing this morning. The statement also that Women’s voices need to be heard in the #Brexit debate, and as more and more facts come to light it’s clear we need a #peoplesvot