The Nasty Labour Party - what they really stand for.

So you too agree with the recruitment of children Annie? If it is "bullying" to state over and over again the beliefs that underpin a civilised society then I suppose I am guilty. But I think it is far worse to subject children to life in the army from which many never fully recover. Did you know the suicide rate in recruits under 20 is higher than in civilian life?

trisher, being nasty to posters does nothing to help 16 year olds. Same as dismissing the suffering in the country in the 1920’s. What is wrong with you? I can remember when you did discuss on this forum, now you just mock and sneer. Your high moral crown doesn’t fit well on your head .

I realy have no wish to speak to you, I wish you could return to the poster you once were.

Why is it being "nasty" to point out that your son's experiences in no way are the experiences of every under 18 recruited to the army? Is it wrong to believe it is important to protect vulnerable children? Well sorry if it is nasty I still stick by the belief that if something is wrong someone has to speak up about it.
I have in no way dismissed anyone's suffering simply pointed out that much as some people may choose to close their eyes and ignore it there is still suffering today.

How sad lemongrove that there are children in our society whose lives have "little meaning or opportunity" as you so rightly say. It would be preferable for them to have opportunities that do not involve them making the decision to put their lives at future risk at such a young age.

GrannyGravy13 - I fully understand your pride in your son and his achievements. But I have to say that as a SW I did see young lads who went into the services at 16 who were not intelligent young men like your son, but highly vulnerable intellectually slow children from very unstable backgrounds - I did feel very concerned for them. The department was just happy to see them off our books.

It is sad Luckygirl, but what opportunities ? The rise in gangs, drug dealing and drug taking, knife carrying. There has always been young people with little hope, for years they were put in approved schools, childrens homes, there is no magic wand which can change some children. I wish there was.

In the seventies when my husband was in the police force we were moved to a town which had an approved school, my husband and I use to be in the scouting movement , we tried to help some boys, a small group would come to our house on a Sunday, we coped with foul language , scratching the dining table with cutlery, stole, we couldn’t reach them, these were not 16 year olds they were younger. There was the vile sexual abuse in North Wales, I met a couple of the victims when they were adults , many of those men took their own lives . Schools cannot be blamed for all this, neither can cut backs . I have no answer, but am sure it is much , much worse now than it was in the seventies

Good evening folks, having watched Strictly and X Factor, I have just caught up.

Luckygirl, there will always be vulnerable youngsters, I stand by my opinion that the army is better than a Street gang.

trisha and oldbatty you both speak about suffering, refugees etc. When you have spoken to people who have picked up children's body parts, discovered atrocities which I do not think are acceptable to be discussed on an open forum, then you can preach JC.

Without these brave people we would be speaking German, my family has been decimated by 2 world wars. Blair sent my AC to Iraq!! He missed his youngest siblings baptisms!!

You are so good at statistics and propaganda, try living in the real world, you insult every person serving in our armed forces - absolutely flipping disgraceful.

The only reason I shall stay on gransnett is the virtual friendships I have formed, non of which are on the political threads.

Lucky of course it’s sad, but there have been teenagers who feel like that since Adam was a lad.The services, should they decide to join up will give them an opportunity.They don’t all stay very long, if it’s not for them they will eventually leave.Nobody forces them to join btw.
You can get married at 16 come to that.

Well said GrannyGravy there is so much posturing and political point scoring on here from disgruntled Corbyn fans who hate anyone who ‘disses’ Corbyn himself or his supporters that they start in on our armed services and posters and their families themselves in order to try and grab the moral high ground.....not a good look!

My opinions on the armed forces have nothing to do with Corbyn, they are based on a lifetime of peace activism. So what GN ers think is it's better to send poor kids off to be killed somewhere than leave them on the streets of Britain? Why don't we just go back to sending children up chimneys and down mines ? That should keep them out of trouble.Of course it isn't something any of us would want for our own grandchildren but it's good enough for the lower classes isn't it?

Some claiming to be Labour party members or supporters (but in reality are closet Tories) have no gumption to answer straight questions.

Oh do give it a rest Grandad

You have a go at Annie at every opportunity, when in truth she is like so many Labour supporters, not only disillusioned by the party, but incredibly worried about the hard left, extreme road the present party is going down.

And you also do that Labour thing - you use the ord Tory like a swear word. Many of the most decent, humanitarian and generous people I know are proud to vote for the Conservative party.

Long gone are the days when Tories were toffs. Now, most working people who dislike extreme socialist policies have become Conservatives. They are centrist and offer the only option to many. Very few people who have very little but have worked hard all their lives and have aspirations for their children and grandchildren have no option but to vote Conservative.,

That's another Labour ploy. Be aware of it.

They use "Tory" like a dirty word, always, when in fact, what is much more disturbing and worrying for most folk is the rise of the extreme, vociferous, envious, often violent and nasty far left. Look at the Jacob rees Mogg thread.

The far left and the present vision of socialism/Marxism is nastier, louder and scarier than any form of conservative politics.

Very many, not few.

Wish we had an edit option Gransnet.

Nothing like an OTT argument, is there Trisher?
Nobody is advocating sending little boys up chimneys blah, blah, blah or off to be killed somewhere
Yes 16 is young for enlistment, I am not happy with that but I do not believe that they see “active service” at such a young age.
Oddly enough your argument is reminiscent of the one against allowing women to service in our armed forces.
I have every respect for your pacifism,trusting it is more sincere than this chap’s at any rate.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-munich-attack-wreaths-palestinian-terrorists-antisemitism-a8489731.html

I did see young lads who went into the services at 16 who were not intelligent young men like your son, but highly vulnerable intellectually slow children from very unstable backgrounds

As did I. I worked with vulnerable and disadvantaged children. Many had nothing. No roots, no sense of belonging, no familial love or protection or concern. They were lost souls. Some of the boys joined the army when they could. Again, some left wing posters also have to sneer at our valiant service men and women in the forces who are not only skilled but brave individuals.

Those boys lacking in education, nurture, and often stable family life found for the first time a routine and discipline which shaped them into fine young men, who gained valuable skills, self esteem and pride. Two asked me to attend their passing out parades and I shed a tear for them, tears of pride and delight that they had become fine, upstanding young men with purpose, enthusiasm,
a sense of pride, friends, and ability.

They lacked structure in their home lives as well as encouragement. At 16 the forces gave them that, as well as self discipline and a sense of responsibility that no other adult had ever shown them.

That some people need that structure after leaving the forces is more due to lack of family backing and support rather than the suggested neglect by the armed forces. Many do not have the coping skills most young adults learn and the lack of structure on leaving the army hits them hard. They miss the routine and the camaraderie. However, many go on to use the skills they have been given and find a determination and strength to make their lives so much better than they might have otherwise been.

To blame the forces for mental health problems and often a poor upbringing, as so many left wing posters seem to do, is shameful. I am grateful for every young recruit's pledge to serve his country and protect, if necessary, its citizens.

What is it with Corbynistas? I can understand a desire for peace and lack of conflict and wars, but to disparage the forces and those serving in them (and to desecrate monuments) is a revolting stance. I am not really surprised. Any sort of patriotic pride and love of one's country also seems to be frowned upon and derided by left wingers. Many amongst them have no scruples about showing violence and hatred towards anyone not in those left wing ranks. Look at the way they have hounded, with absolute hatred, Jacob Rees Mogg and his children.

If this is the sort of fervour Corbyn and Momentum encourage it's no wonder people like Rod Liddle speak out. I do hope the naive and blinkered looking for Marxist revolution led by Corbyn and co have had their eyes opened to the hatred embedded in the ranks of many of his followers. That Corbyn embraces and befriends enemies of the UK ought to be reason enough to turn away from his form of 'socialism'

That’s a brilliant post Day6 ??

Great post Day6

I live in a ‘military town’ families here who have several generations of members of the armed forces.

The army is a career choice, parents have to sign for their child to join up if they are under 18, the army does not sweep into schools and march 16 year olds off to army camps, if the parents don’t agree the boys and girls have to wait untill they are 18.

Very good post Day6
On a lighter note, how do you have such a clear head at 6 in the morning. I did, many years ago, but not now.

Day6 - brilliant post, clear, well thought out, eminently clear and sensible.

Oops - did I mention clear?
More than I am this morning

I have tried not to post on this thread again as it tends to be circular and have not read all posts re young people in the forces so sorry if I replicate previous comments.
Some on here would label me a "Corbyinista" and associate me with whatever derogatory nuances that carries. I voted for JC as leader. I do not believe all the smars and slurs against him but I am also not blind to his faults! None of us are perfect!

I do not like war, or to glorify it and would campaign strongly in support of diplomacy, discussions, negotiation and compromise with "the ememy" before ever sending troops into conflict. Too many lives are lost and damaged..military & civilian. BUT I respect & appreciate those that put themselves forward to be part of the military, particularly those young amd more vulnerable. Someone has to do that difficult job.
I am also greatly angered at the lack of
after support for those whose lives are damaged because they have been on active service.
It is not the individual sevice personnel that I find hard to admire ..just those, of any political persuasion, that choose armed conflict before all other options are exhausted. And decisions not always taken for the reasons given...

Good post, PECS

I do think that there are things that could be done to help these vulnerable young men:

-an education system that values practical skills too rather than solely emphasising academic achievement as the only worthwhile aim, and forcing teachers down the "get-them-through-the-tests" mindset.
- a proper CAMHS system that is adequately funded and staffed.
- more apprenticeships, that are truly valued as an alternative to university.
- a social housing programme that also includes local services - the council house sales policy has stripped our social housing stock.
- the return of family centres, where young struggling parents used to have the opportunity to learn parenting skills. i.e. a preventive approach.
- a re-think of the drugs legislation.
- I could go on........!

No magic wand annie, but there are real answers that are drowning under political dogma.

I am sure that, as posters above have pointed out, there are many young people who have benefited from joining the armed services - the structure and discipline that has been lacking in their lives is present there. My personal view is that I would like to see those things being present in civvie street by the political will to change policies that condemn these young people to a miserable childhood. Only then could we be sure that those who choose the services are doing so for the right reasons and are young people who have the self-confidence and capacity to make this very serious decision that has the potential to take their lives. I would like to feel that, as a civilised society, we could come up with proper options for these young people, so that the choice of a service career was a positive one, rather than just a way off the streets and out of a life that they should not have suffered in the first place.

I am afraid that I do think that the armed service advertising that emphasizes having mates and companionship is somewhat cynical and smacks of exploitation of these children's vulnerability.

I have to be honest and say that I am glad that none of my chilren chose an army career- I would have been deeply concerned not only for their safety, but also for the political motivations and moral integrity of the wars into which they might find themselves.

It is a vexed and difficult question, but the bottom line for me is that recruits should have the capacity to know what they are taking on before being allowed to join up. I know that there are parents here whose sons and daughters fit that bill, but it is not true of all, and I think that government should be standing back and taking a long hard look at our social policies to create opportunities for these vulnerable children outside of the armed services.

I confess to pacifist leanings - I suspect that this is not appreciated on here! - and have deep concerns about the armed services. We decided against sending our children to the best local school where being in the cadet force was compulsory. We felt this was fundamentally wrong.

I do agree PECS

I too voted for Corbyn, I withdrew my support because I was really shocked to learn facts (not smears) about him, I have always supported the Labour Party There has never been a leader without faults, but for me as a party activist to learn whilst we were fighting back after the 1983 election he was fighting against us, and for my personal belief that grief should be respected to learn he invited members of the IRA to Westminster following the Brighton bombing whilst colleagues were grieving showed a lack of respect and indifference. I believe him to be a hypocrite and will not and cannot support him.

I could respect his supporters here if they could acknowledge his failings but they make excuses for those fsilings.

And yes I demonstrated against the Iraq war.

Luckygirl, if faults in the education system are to blame these faults have existed for many, many years under both Labour and Conservative governments.

Indeed they have annie- but the situation has been made worse by the testing regime and the ethos - the dreadful Gove has a lot to answer for. All parties bear some of the blame for the mess it is in.My view is that someone needs yo stand back and take a long hard look at the education, social and health policies that are not serving us well. Who might do this I wonder?

Very good post Luckygirl and PECS. I heard Val McDermid on radio this morning talking about Strathclyde crime initiative, and the only way the cycle can be broken for many young people is by a the type of community initiatives you suggest Lucky and because of the huge funding implications there has to be the political will to do it. Talking about crime she says of our society that we get the type of crime we deserve. Sadly crime is increasingly becoming a career path for many disaffected young people today. I was brought up in an army family and it wouldn't have been my first career choice for my children.