The Nasty Labour Party - what they really stand for.

I do not think Chewbacca that anyone here is suggesting any disrespect. My main concern is that recruits should be in a position to make an informed choice. Sadly it has been my experience that this is not always the case.

And my more general concern is a lack of faith in the judgement of those who take our forces into war and put young lives at risk for dubious political reasons.

I disagree Luckygirl. I think a great deal of disrespect to our armed forces personnel has been shown on here; by a minority of posters.

Luckygirl, cannon fodder, trained killiers ? These are respectful?

oldbatty Sat 29-Sep-18 19:16:11
GG13.....fine n dandy, but he is a trained killer? yes?

Respectful?

The fact is many of those who send our young people to war will think of the "troops" as cannon fodder ..and as dispensible..part of the cost of war. Service personnel will be trained to kill..that is a key part of their role. These are facts. It does not take away from being able to feel respect for individuals placed in, often impossible situations, who risk life and limb in the line of duty & service. Like any group of people in a job there will be good and bad amongst them. Not all soldiers are heroes, not all soldiers are hard hearted thugs! Just people.

Some police officers are trained to use firearms

OK - I agree that some have expressed themselves in unfortunate ways. But I guess it is an expression of how passionately they feel about the issue of these young people.

Whilst I would not of course denigrate or disrespect those in the armed services, I retain major concerns about the recruitment of vulnerable children, especially given the controversy surrounding many of the conflicts to which they are eventually sent.

I am in the process of organising a major event with a huge choir and actors reading to commemorate those who found themselves involved in the First World War. I think it is an important event and that remembering these people is important: the Red Cross nurses, the munitions workers (Canary Girls) and the soldiers.

But one thing that shines through the research that I have been doing is the sheer sense of these young men being dispensable - the reckless decisions of the generals beggar belief. The conduct of that war was one cock-up after another and many lives were lost unnecessarily. I have a strong desire to protect others from the same fate, as I feel no reason to suppose that anything has changed much.

How many sixteen year olds signed up last year ?

I don't know annie - I only know what I saw with individuals when I was a SW - I felt very concerned about them. These individuals were not able to make proper judgements; and some of those who were encouraging them down this route just wanted them out of the way.

Do you mean their parents Luckygirl?

Their parents, neighbours, police, social services, teachers.

Then where can they go ? The streets ?

I come from a military family and although most have now retired my DSIL serves in the RN. The word service is one we should not take lightly. Just forget the killing aspect for one moment, which is usually an act of defence, but think about world events where our young men and women are there to serve others in times of need - not just war.

Evacuating civilians from villages, destroyed by an erupting volcano or a hurricane, transporting vital life saving equipment and personnel with the expertise to rebuild infrastructure, patrolling the dangerous waters of the middle east to prevent piracy and rescuing desperate refugees from the Mediterranean. These are just a few operations that are nowadays taken for granted.

I know very little about army recruitment but I do know that in all the forces there are entry requirements put in place to safeguard the vulnerable. Not everyone makes it past the initial training.

Sorry, Luckygirl but you are making it sound like they willingly take disaffected youth in order to swell the ranks.

Not so.

A very fair and balanced post Merlot

Junior solders are able to leave the army any time during the first six months for no reason other than they feel it is not for them. Older recruits have, I think six weeks to change their minds before signing for four years so hardly a press gang situation!!
The army of 100 years ago is a very different place to the army of today. 100 years ago ALL armies treated their soldiers as cannon fodder, so to try and equate then and now is plainly ridiculous. Of course they are trained to kill! How else, if threatened would we protect this country - cuppa and biccies at No 10?! They are also trained in so many other things including civil emergencies. I'm immensely proud of our armed forces and all they've done for the last 100 years and continue to do. I think these Islands are one of the few places in the world where the civilian population are actually not afraid of their own soldiers! That goes for the police as well. I was brought up to believe that a policeman is your friend, and while in every organisation there are bad apples, nothing's perfect, I emphatically still believe that to be true.

Merlot, a very good post, I totally agree.

There is so much more to the forces than "being trained killers".

If parents, police, neighbours , social services and teachers all find a sixteen year old difficult it does begger the question - is this sixteen year old beyond human help?

Not necessarily Annie the teenage years are difficult for many and for some children they are especially challenging. That said those years do pass and some (or course not all) of these difficult children pass through and grow up. The intervention of the armed forces at this time disrupts that process completely. They are taken into a closed society and subjected to an authoritarian regime, then at 18 sent off to war zones. The coping skills they might have developed are lost. Many of them have written about returning to civilian life with the same skills they had at 16, but with the additional burden of PTSD. If anyone is interested in the lives of servicemen who condemn the recruitment look at the Veterans For Peace website.

Our political parties do at times amuse me.

John McDonald has condemn the Tory Party for bitter infighting!

He stood on s stage of the O2 and called MP’s in his own party ‘f****g losers’

I don't think these children are beyond human help - it was part of my ethos as a SW to never give up on anyone.

I hear what you are saying merlot - but I guess our views are always affected by our life experiences, and I have seen unfortunate things happy over army recruitment.

Luckygirl, did you see unfortunate things happen for sixteen year olds with no army recruitment involved ?

I live in an area of high deprivation ,the Army recruitment team is here on a regular basis and in the schools.I totally disagree with this.There are few jobs her and the ones that are tend to be minimum wage and zero hour contracts,mainly hospitality.These kids are being offered what seems to them to be a great deal,money in their pocket a roof over their heads an away from their nagging parents .Whats not to like.Sadly the number who come back totally unfit for work is huge.The number of ex service personnel with mental health issues ,living on the streets grows year on year.The government...whatever its hue,is very good at sending them to conflicts and not so good at taking responsibility for their state when they come home mentally and physically impaired.

If these young men leave to escape nagging parents do they want to return home or is the street a better option?

We are not talking about nagging parents, but about parents who sadly don't have a clue and lead very chaotic lives. All the preventive measures like family centres and parenting classes have been axed in favour of supporting bankers and big capital. I firmly believe that we need to get a grip on these facts and look at ways of supporting families so that these children do not become prey to drugs gangs etc.

Unfortunate things do indeed happen to 16 year olds all the time, army recruitment aside. I want these children to have real choices and real support.

I have just been listening to Phillip Hammond telling us that they are the party of business - so who is the party of ordinary folk struggling to manage I ask myself?