Police knocking criminals off mopeds

A brilliant successful outcome, thanks for the link GrannyGravy .

I have been to a “fundraiser” lunch and she was the speaker, not for the faint hearted, so truthful and inspirational.

Jalima, a couple of pages back you seemed to imply my comments meant I was opposed to the policy. I don't think I am. I've some concern about the police officers using it because it seems likely if the perpetrator is badly injured, the police officer could be prosecuted. I'm not defending police brutality, I don't see this as brutality, more as a means to an end.

Does that mean I'm not a proper 'do gooder'? I know these young criminals, I knew them as babies and came across them at different stages of their development, their fractured, damaging lives. I met some of them again, in secure units, young offenders institutes or in prisons, in mental health units. That influences my feelings about crime and punishment.

I was trying to find what I had said which implied your comments meant you were opposed to the policy. Was it this?
Demonising children or indeed adults does nothing to reduce crime
The aim of this is to catch them not to injure them, otherwise they will be getting away on the stolen mopeds and continuing to steal, terrorise and possibly maim innocent people.

If the police can't stop them, can't find them, how on earth can they bring them to justice, face the court, receive the appropriate sentence and. we hope, rehabilitation?

I meant that catching them by this method wasn't demonising them. I did understand what you meant.

Sounds like confusion all round Jalima - it's a difficult subject, apologies if I've added to confusion.

I've just noticed a Change.Org petition to Speed up the Tactical Contact Bill has been started by a former or current serving Police Officer. He stresses the danger posed to the public and to delivery drivers etc and questions why Parliament hasn't yet supported the decision by the Met to use Tactical Contact, ie nudging the criminals off their mopeds. The petition highlights the concerns I expressed earlier in this discussion, about the possibility of Police Officers being dismissed or prosecuted when taking this action.
I still believe it's something that could be used effectively but if I was the Police Officer, I'd want the perimeters clear to avoid losing my job for simply doing it. The potential for someone to be badly hurt or worse, seems as possible in this scenario as when armed response officers shoot in the belief someone is about to pull a gun on them.

Speaking to a Mother of a serving Police Officer, at the moment traffic officers are trained in how to use their vehicles to block, nudge cars when needed.

The officers using these nudging tactics on mopeds have had extensive training, this is only used when it is judged that the general public are at risk from the moped in question.

In the area where it has been used for some months moped crime has decreased from 270 to 70 a month, surely this is a step in the right direction. (I am trying to find the link, but as stated previously I am a complete technophobe ?)

I'm another technophobe GrannyG but I read on line this morning, an interview with Cressida Dick in which she talked about the drop in moped crime since the nudge decision was made.

If nothing else this method is proving to be a deterrent if there have been less reports of this crime------until the next tactic as criminals now appear to be one-step ahead of the law.

When these moped criminals are nudged off their mopeds (probably stolen). What happens next , are they arrested on the spot or do they just run away laughing , only to steal another moped and do it again,, thinking what a laugh that was , can't wait to tell their mates !it would be wonderful if the action did deter them from repeating , but I fear not , If they are on drugs then they are desperate for their next fix and nothing will stop them committing a crime to get money,

EllanVannin, I agree , criminals are one step ahead of the law , they have no fear or respect of the police, I saw a programme recently where a police car was chasing a criminal, when the police stopped as the criminal had run down an alley, young kids some looked about ten years old were jumping on the roof /bonnet of the police car laughing and putting two fingers up to the police, It starts at home and in school but so many don't have discipline at home I despair , so many broken families,

now appear to be one-step ahead of the law
Not when they're on the bonnet of a police car they're not

I don't dispute the worries caused by the increase in gun/knife crime and the use of mopeds by criminals.

I know I'm repeating myself here but, awfulising, demonising, referring to lack of discipline and broken families and complaining about problems in society won't butter any parsnips. Look at the Hogarth cartoons of Gin Lane in the 17th Century, read Dickens, read Frank McCourt's Angela's Ashes and accept British society has always had what is sometimes referred to as feckless people.
We live in a safe, prosperous country. We should invest in our people, all of them. that means proper preventive services, a strong criminal justice system and a move away from simplifying complex problems

It is the family background at fault Lilypops. Mostly the one-parent ones whose noses are usually stuck to their mobiles and who are completely oblivious of where the children are or what they're doing so long as they're out of their hair.
These so-called parents have no respect for anything or anyone and the children follow suit knowing no different. You can't reason with people like that they're born that way.

What a provocative and nonsensical post ellanVannin. Or, am I missing something, are you an expert on child development and children and families?

Surely if what you're saying is true, Ellan, then the children need all the help they can get?

Miss A , you are right, the children do need help , from their parents and discipline in schools , teachers can't reprimand children as they would have parents coming up to schoolcomplaining their child has been told off,

I am 64. Feckless !!!but acid throwing, machete wielding , a little more than feckless, Pulling a policewomen out of her car and punching her on to the ground , ?

There are 2 things being discussed here:

1. The presence in our society of criminals (in this instance mainly young moped-riding thieves) and what causes these people to lead this life. There is a temptation to try and apportion blame somewhere - schools, parents, social media, drug-taking etc. But the truth is we do not know exactly what is behind all this - we can take an educated guess if we happen to be knowledgeable about social deprivation - which most of us are not. My own take on this is that there needs to be more resources poured into prevention measures, particularly catching the drug pushers and barons, prevention measures improved regarding the import of drugs, family centres for struggling families where the culture that generates young drug addicts can be tackled etc.

I spent many years as a SW in deprived areas of one of Britain's major cities and the seeds of this crisis were clear to see - family support measures and prevention were in their infancy, but held out some hope for these deprived communities. They have now been withdrawn, prevention has been jettisoned and crisis management is the name of the game - hence this mess.

Most of the young people perpetrating these appalling crimes are themselves damaged and vulnerable and easy prey for older criminals and drug pushers.

2. Is the policy of "nudging" these young people off their mopeds and risking their lives and the lives of bystanders justifiable? I think we are right to have concerns about this, and I would guess the police themselves might be uncomfortable about it - certainly they could be placing themselves at risk of prosecution. My personal view is that it is a very dubious policy - not because I do not recognise the appalling nature of the crimes and the need to find a way of preventing these - but because in general we, as a society, have quite rightly turned our backs on capital punishment, indiscriminate use of guns by the police; and I think this policy falls into these categories.

I think it is important to remember that we have also turned our backs on these young people as they grow up, by piling deprivation upon deprivation with austerity policies. Pulling this back now is a mammoth task but is essential - resources targeted at PREVENTION are what is needed. Will it ever happen? - I suspect not. As a society we now seem to prefer a blame culture rather than one that nurtures its children to provide the sort of role models and care that lead to people feeling included in society and able to take their place as decent citizens. Blame is entirely appropriate, but it is not the individual damaged young people to which it should be directed.

The policies of successive governments have to change. Money spent on families, education, social care etc. is money well spent. The education system has to change so that young people with non-academic skills feel valued and valuable, rather than thrown on the scrap-heap while the teachers battle with tests, stats, form-filling etc.

There will always be those who live on the fringes of society and commit unthinkable crimes; the job of governments is to initiate policies that minimise this; not to withdraw support to the most vulnerable.

" Provocative and nonsensical " Iam64 ? Please explain how ?

So who was at fault in the Bulger case,2 10 year old boys or their parents ?

Luckygirl what an absolutely stunning post. It sums up and articulates all aspects of the issue thoroughly and logically. I’m in awe.

I’m off out but I’m answer to EllenV - I suggest you read Luckygirl’s post. Despite having years of experience of working with the kind of families being discussed here, she doesn’t claim to be an expert. I completely agree with her points about the need to invest in children and families rather than continue to build a bland culture

EV it’s just not that simple - that’s the problem. Read Luckys post and reflect

Yes, luckygirls post.
Brilliantly put, well reasoned and exactly right, I would say.

Don't our parents mould us into who we are ?

Nobody has to be a Philadelphia Lawyer expert to realise the backgrounds of these miscreants ! Nor what their futures hold.

You should try having a word with the police themselves then perhaps you'll find out that at least one member of families such as these has a record. What hope for their offspring or can you answer that too ?
The police are sick to their back teeth of " go lightly " people like you. These are hardened criminals we're talking about not petty thieves ! Your psychobabble doesn't work for people like this.

There are thousands of deprived children so why is it just a minority who fall into crime ?