The PM met every single EU demand! Dreadful deal!

I voted leave, TM's deal is not leave, it's remain but with no say!!!!

Nigel Farage ,? Remind me, ohh yes he’s the one that set the cat amongst the pigeons, ran off laughing , whilst still accepting his pay from those he supposedly detests.

I disagree about TM's managing of the negotiations. She didn't have any option and it would have been the same whoever was doing it. Also, do you really think she did the negotiating? Of course not, it would be the civil servants who did most of the work.

It is too cowardly to just tell MPs to accept it or get a no deal. That sounds rather like blackmail to me. The really democratic thing to do would be to go back to the electorate and ask them what they want. This time they would be in a position to vote on facts not fiction. If they then still wanted to leave then we would know on what basis, the deal or no deal. Whatever the outcome most people would accept it but if this continues most people will be dissatisfied.

As Lord Patten (I think it was) said: whatever happened to the mantra 'No deal is better than a bad deal'? Now we have the worst deal imaginable and are told how much better it is than no deal.
I hadn't realised that those who voted leave were so sanguine about the country being so much worse off for many years.

Whether we leave with this deal or no deal we will still be worse off than remaining. The government have said as much.

winterwhite: I hadn't realised that those who voted leave were so sanguine about the country being so much worse off for many years.

I believe the reason they are so sanguine is that they don't believe we will be worse off. We have heard comments like "we are a great nation/we've always managed in the past/bring it on/ we have a bright future ahead of us." Even "Rule Britannia". We have had a very emotional response to this whole business, right from the beginning and, I fear, to the end.

Yes the Brexit vote was a matter of blind emotion over economics. Disastrous.

I agree with Nonnie

The UK decided we wanted out. We are the petitioners, the EU are the ones granting us a favour by letting us break our contract.

Why should we expect to get a good deal? This isn't a subscription to a golf club. It is a political alliance.

Face facts - when you negotiate you get a better deal by having something to give in return for concessions from the other party. Just what do you suppose we can give to the EU that they can't get or do perfectly well without our help?

Take off the rose-coloured spectacles and see without them - if we want to go it alone, then as far as the EU is concerned, we can get on with it.

We can (and must) renegotiate all those trade deals with other countries (The EU has agreements with 60 or 70 outside countries) that will be null and void once we leave, and which the countries concerned won't give us on terms as good as when they were dealing with the whole of Europe, and we can get on with it.

You wanna be alone, go ahead and be alone, but don't complain that you want special consideration too.

fullfact.org/europe/UK-EU-trade-agreements/

TM is attempting to cede our sovereignty to a power that does not have the U.K.’s best interests at heart.

You may sneer at any form of national pride Greta but many don't. Try telling the Scots, Welsh and Irish their countries and people are the same as England's. Traditions, norms, language and culture make us different. You sneer at patriotism yet we have just mourned those who died in world wars to ensure the freedoms and benefits we have today.

The EU will become a federal power and when TMs deal is agreed (as it surely will be, given the EU is resolute that it is binding and not open to further negotiations) we may as well stop voting.

The next step is to become no more than one of the EU's regions. And continue to pour in billions every year to have our hands tied.

Brussels does not have our interests at heart, and it never has. (Look at the way populist European political parties are becoming prominent as an EU protest.) It is in our interests to have more power regarding the way we trade and deal with the rest of the world than the EU is prepared to relinquish.

The "Deal" is crap without a doubt. Some may claim no one could have done better, personally I think no one could have done worse. I voted to leave and still want to leave but not on these terms. Why would anyone want to leave on these terms. I'd rather remain on the deal we had than accept this awful deal. If we wanted to stay we already had the best deal. If we want to leave we need so much more than is on offer otherwise a no deal looks very attractive.

Had there been a Remain result U.K. would be in a better position now than before the referendum as contrary to so called facts which have been posted on this forum David Cameron got most of the things he asked Brussels to give. U.K. would not need to contribute to any baill outs in the Euro areas or join the Euro - these things are easily googled and you can see what he asked for and what they agreed to.
Naturally these things are off the table now.
The money Europe needs to be paid is contribution for the budget which Britain agreed to pay for this period of budget and which ends at finish of this budget period. If it doesn’t honour this ‘debt’ who will ever trust the word of this wonderful successful country which will be emerging next year?

shambles ,and there is a rumour that 38 Labour MP's will abstain from the vote...might as well just vote WITH the tories same thing in the long run.I cant understand why anyone thinks the UK deserves to be treated any differently.the EU wont be worse off without us ,car manufacturers dont NEED to sell us their carsBMW has said if it adds 7euro onto the price of every car sold outside the EU it will more than cover the loss of any sales in the UK .
Apply that to all the other things WE'LL be paying tariffs for from other places and see that the EU will do very well while we struggle .Well done the folk who think the clock can turn back to the 1930's...well it will ...but not in a good way !

Why is there such an upsurge in populism throughout most of the EU? It is because the ordinary Joe Public is not better off being in the EU, just look at France, one of the richest members.
Sadly the middle class microcephalics of this nation have been hoodwinked by the greedy for profit industries that are only concerned with making money by chasing cheap labour throughout the EU. Their continuous doom mongering compounded by worries over costa holidays have resulted in some being hypnotised by the hysteria.
Free movement? Mention this to the UK workers on minimum wage, what opportunity do they have to raise their income when they will always be undercut by someone from a country with much poorer infrastructure that will accept lower remuneration. Tell the minimum wage earners to go seek work in the EU...where? few of these members of our society have the skills or language to secure well paid work within other EU member states, how many can speak all or any of the languages of the EU. But we can forget these as long as we retain Erasmus for a few middle class students to study abroad, forgetting that students have always studied abroad.
Industry is always crying 'we must protect jobs' when much of their production has been outsourced to the cheaper employment parts of the EU. Whose jobs are they protecting? Back in the UK the cry is ' we cannot do without EU labour'. It is only when free movement started that cheap EU labour started to be used.
Before then employers had to train staff and pay them commensurate salaries. Now they just import an already skilled person from a poorer EU country.
But lets ignore this because it might affect our cheap flights.
The EU has done nothing but polarise societies into the have and have nots and it appears the haves care not about the have nots.

Putting my head above the barricade here - Scots are proud as are the Irish, Northern Irish and Welsh, so what is so wrong with being proud of being English?

Fair enough. Be proud to be English. England is part of the UK just like Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

I was speaking to a French neighbour and she was telling me that in many elections in France as well as other countries were against a candidate rather than for one She said she voted for Macron as she would not vote for Le Pen.
I do think you get doctored news in U.K. there is a good bit of fake news about France doing the rounds and I dares other countries.

It is only when free movement started that cheap EU labour started to be used.

Oh, FGS! Before the EU we imported cheap labour from the Empire and the Commonwealth. And treated them appallingly. What's the difference?

MaizieD
oh, FGS! Before the EU we imported cheap labour from the empire and the Commonwealth. And treated them appallingly. What’s the difference?

The workers who came to work in the U.K. from the Empire and Commonwealth were invited here to perform specific work the numbers were controlled to meet an actual need and all were employed on the same terms and conditions as their U.K. colleagues. Some may have been subject to racism within their communities but not all. If you consider they were treated appallingly then you should apply the same reasoning to the indigenous workforce.

Of course a No Deal wont be better. And of course the PMs proposal isn’t good. And, no, Labour couldn’t do any better.
Of course it is a total disaster ....... we should have left well alone. People’s vote ..... on something hardly anybody really understood. It is a bitter divorce and there are no winners in divorce.

The lawyers win in a divorce. In his case the Smuggs and the Johnsons will profit.

The EU made it clear a year ago that the UK would not be allowed to have any competitive advantage in trade deal and they have not moved one inch from that position.

They are in the driving seat always will be, any "deal" is now being demonized in the media and it will be very hard to get a majority for anything. TM will I'm sure survive until the new year then she will go but that changes nothing.

Maybe remain is still possible but nobody is promoting that so it looks like "no deal". Any one who thinks that will be easy is deluded, we may well get more favorable deals with some other countries. You can guarantee that will be balanced out by worse deals with the EU, they are not going to allow the UK to import more cheaply, then send goods into EU markets at an advantage.
That is what trade deals are all about, protecting your home industries, protecting employment, and maintaining taxation income.

Foreign Labour.
Read the latest figures EU migrants are down, migrants from the rest of the world are up despite the government policy kkto reduce migration.

Some are unskilled but an increasing number are skilled the health and care industries would close without them so would the hospitality industry. If you are a manager of a factory you dont phone the labour exchange to find new workers, you call the agency who have plenty of foreigners who will turn up on time and do the work.

Why we cannot train UK people to do the work is a mystery to me, migrants travel thousands of miles to do the work that british won't cross the road for.

Thanks for the good post Elegran.
Britain stopped ruling the waves along time ago.