Revoke Article 50

Sorry petra I don't understand how that relates to this discussion or why you addressed it to me.

Nonnie
Apologies. I read your post wrong

Had the referendum result been the other way round as confidently expected, there would have been absolutely no worry about a small majority, unfair practices, spurious voting for whatever reasons, and absolutely no suggestion of another vote however small the majority. D.C with parliaments cavalier approval, metaphorically stuck his neck out and had his head chopped off. If you are in danger of causing chaos, then don't ask the question in the first place. No good saying that you could never imagine it happening, as we all know what can happen to thought!!

I think it has gone beyond the point of Leavers vs Remainers. Dead and gone.
Since the referendum both 'sides' must surely have revised their views, as we have seen more information, and the developing attitudes of the EU politicians.
Personally, I can see both sides, bu can't find a way through it.
I'm a Pisces (2 fish swimming in opposite directions.)

Oh! I thought it was Gemini who got !

guycounseling.com/12-pisces-symbols-you-must-know/

Had the referendum result been the other way round as confidently expected, there would have been absolutely no worry about a small majority, unfair practices, spurious voting for whatever reasons, and absolutely no suggestion of another vote

Well, Farage said if it was a small majority for Remain he wouldn't leave it there..

And as the illegality was on the Leave side they could hardly protest if they'd lost, despite it...

What bothers me is the the acceptance that cheating, lying and lawbreaking are perfectly OK campaign practices. What sort of a message does that send to voters (who have precious little trust in politicians anyway) and to the rest of the world? The UK diminished to the level of a corrupt state? Will we have to have international observers in when we next have an election?

Financial services firms move £800 billion of assets to Europe-the number of jobs that could relocate from London to Europe in the near future stands at just over 7,000.

www.financialreporter.co.uk/finance-news/financial-services-firms-move-800-billion-of-assets-to-europe.html

And yet the leave liars still say leaving would make us better off!!!!!

An informed referendum?!! Who do you believe? self serving politicians, people with vested interests? A corrupt EU Commission? On Newsnight the Romanian Presidency of the Council of the EU admitted that corruption was alive and well, and being papered over as the prison population
is too high!! much to Emily Maitlands obvious astonishment! Why on earth would we want to stay in such a flawed almost criminal organisation?!!

I think Tory MP, Sam Gyimah, who resigned from the government last year, puts the case well in this article in The Spectator-

"I did not want to be an ex-minister. I did not want to be here. I have worked for the last three years to implement Brexit in my ministerial roles. But to barrel forward with Brexit in the name of delivering the referendum result, when we know that future generations will look back and never forgive us is a dereliction of our duty as public servants. In public life we sometimes have to face up to difficult choices at difficult times. And if we cannot honestly recommend any of the deals in front of us we should have the courage to call a halt.

I hear many people say this will be a huge betrayal of referendum result, that it will be a rallying cry for the worst type of popular politics and politicians. The strange thing is the same people who suggest that somehow the public is ready to take to the streets, are those who say people are bored of Brexit and want to move on. The betrayal narrative has become the new project fear. Those who for years campaigned for a referendum and more direct democracy now say you can have too much democracy. But if Brexit goes ahead without more considered debate, the vast majority will feel betrayed whatever form it takes. Today we worry that certain sections of the public will be angry with this course, but if we do not bring the people along, we risk wider discontent.

Those who want No Deal to reheat their own versions of Thatcherism will cry betrayal if the PM gets her deal. The Corbynistas will blame the Conservatives for everything that goes wrong and have every incentive to do so. There will be people supporting the PM’s deal now trusting that somehow this is final who will be furious to find out that it isn’t the end of the matter at all, and in the ensuing negotiations, current wins may not survive.

And there will be lots of people — particularly the young – who will probably never forgive the Conservatives or perhaps politicians in general if the government tries to ram through something so obviously flawed.

To be clear, I do not wish to downplay concerns about what another referendum will entail. I share the fears and anxieties of many people. Countries like Spain, Canada, and Australia have had multiple referenda on the same issue, for many of us this was a singular and traumatic experience. But how can we be frightened of asking a more informed question?

And if I can turn my attention to the Conservative Party interest for a second, the effects of Brexit will reverberate for years to come, so it is in our interest that the country is brought along with eyes wide open.

Democracy, after all, is not a single event. It is a process, and often conditions demand multiple touches with citizens on seminal issues, especially at a time of historic flux. Asking the people the right questions about what future they want will ultimately strengthen the democratic basis for what is an irreversible decision.

In this crisis of our democracy, my answer is that there should be more democracy, not less."

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/its-time-to-think-the-unthinkable-on-brexit/

Thanks varian that puts it very well.

It is interesting that every time I have asked what Leavers are worried about if we have a democratic vote based on current information I never get a reply.

Thanks Varian, that's one of the best "think pieces" I've read on the subject. As somebody else said recently, "Democracy did not die in 2016".

What is happening just now is the exact opposite of democracy when one determined person can stop a Commons debate and vote on the most important decision of our economic lives and run the clock down to disaster while paying lorry drivers £550 for a day's acting in a meaningless charade about parking (not to mention taking on a ferry company with no ships).

No.10 said the government would only hold a 90-minute debate on its Brexit Plan B, with only one amendment allowed.

Is this what we all understand by "parliament taking back control"?

Former prime minister John Major has renewed calls for the government to suspend Brexit and give the public a Final Say referendum.

Ahead of a critical Brexit vote on Tuesday, the Tory grandee said that revoking Article 50 was the “only sensible course” to avoid long-term damage to the whole country.

Sir John also argued that a second referendum would be regarded as “the definitive decision” on Brexit, as he stepped up pressure on Theresa May to consider a fresh vote.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-john-major-revoke-article-50-second-referendum-a8725226.html

I don't have a problem with a second referendum, but it must:

- ask the right question
- make sure that the voters have exact and IMPARTIAL details of the implications of that question
- set a minimum turn-out
- set a minimum margin

Any second referendum should exclude the possibility of leaving with no deal. It is worrying that so few people understand what that would actually mean. Some think it means "everything stays the same except we don't pay any money to the EU and they'd be no freedom of movement and it will all be just fine"

How otherwise do you prevent that type of idiocy catapulting us into disaster and devastating the lives and prospects of our children and grandchildren?

Luckygirl completely agree; we might then restore our reputation around the world aa a democracy rather than a laughing stock.

Excellent post Varian. Politicians don't just have local interests to consider but, from time to time, and this is one of them, the greater national interest.

varian - I think that some of your sweeping statements about those who voted leave and their "idiocy" are rather off-beam. You do not know this; you just do not like the way some people voted.

I think it is likely that we are ALL pretty ignorant about the exact implications of either leave or stay, or this deal or no deal. The complexities of the EU and its tortuous legalities are a closed book to many members of the public - not surprisingly, when so many politicians and economists disagree about what is in our best interests.

The unedifying sight of the referendum campaign treating us to a circus show was beyond belief. What is needed, as I said above, is access to impartial information, or at least direction to sources of this. Brexit is not a party political issue, and the pre-referendum campaign should have been about the issues and not about the tribes.

I do not assume that everyone who voted to leave did so because they are idiots - there are sound reasons for some to want out - communities whose livelihoods depend on fishing for instance.

It is not helpful to divide the nation into sensible people who want to stay in the EU, and idiot racist bigots who want to leave. We need to get the emotion and tribalism out of this if there is a second vote.

lucky and varian it's good to read your posts. Watching today's politics programmes I am seriously wondering if things have deteriorated so much that there is now no alternative to a GE or second vote. Discussions and potential co- operation in the air? Airing views that should have been discussed months ago!
If Yvette Cooper or Keir Starmer were LP leader I believe we'd be witnessing the death throes of this horrific government, its stupidity and self-serving policies!
TM has allowed such "breaches of trust" already that I can't believe her hypocrisy!

Any thoughts on John McDonnell applauding the man calling for Theresa May to “shoot herself in the head” at a so called rally yesterday

Luckygirl that is probably the most sensible post I have read about the referendum result.

Luckygirl I understand why you thought that some of my statements might be a bit "off beam". It is a reflection of the level of frustration I feel and I imagine a lot of other Remainers feel the same.

Watching Andrew Marr's program and the news this morning I was genuinly shocked at the inflamitory language used by Theresa May. This talk of "betrayal of democracy" is just so so wrong.

Our democracy was high-jacked by Cambridge Analytica, Putin, and the vested interests of some billionaire tax exile newspaper proprietors.

How can offering the people the opportunity to vote not be an exercise in democracy?

Luckygirl,

Your requests for the style of any second referendum are spot on.

I still don't see how anyone thinks that the country could leave with Mrs May's deal or crash out without impartial information, some guidelines set and a chance to make a better informed choice outwith the desperate time scale.

Unfortunately, we now seem to be in a bit of a mess (not all of it caused by Brexit) and in the grip of intransigence by the leadership of the main UK opposition party which appears not to recognise an open goalmouth.