European Spring

I do indeed. The vast majority of people in all countries are, post recession of 10 years ago, fed up of austerity measures when the crash wasn’t of their making. The reckless bankers got off with a mere slap on the wrists. The 1% elites are so removed from the realities of life the rest of many people endure. Populist movements are gathering momentum. The storm clouds are gathering ...

Yes I do.
And we are attempting to tether ourselves even more closely, with no representation.

easybee I also worry about being tethered to Brussels with no say in the matter.

They are assembling an EU army, if we do not “tow the line” in a few years will we see the EU army on UK streets?

Macron dropped teargas from helicopters on the gillet jaunes at the weekend.

I feel some people are blind to the EU
faults.

It is certainly a possibility.

I have always had major doubts about the EU - no, I am not anti-immigrants or a racist, blah, blah, blah. I should not have to say this, but it is necessary in the current climate.

Right at the beginning when we voted on the Common Market, I was concerned about what the future held. About creating a "playground clique". About the inevitable tortuous nature of decision-making in such a large organisation. About how we might come to think about those who were not "in" - if some are "in" then some will be "out" by definition. About the danger of creating another block of countries vying for power in the world. About the possibility of expansionist aims creeping in. About the inevitability of a few countries within the group taking precedence and their wishes being foisted on others. About it becoming a focus for general discontent (as it has) and how this might play out.

I could go on. None of my concerns were about not wanting to get on with our European neighbours; but about the fact that the worst violence and discord happens within families rather than with neighbours.

It only takes one thing - a global recession and its ensuing discontent in this case - to start a backlash, and the EU officials are giving us a hard time because they can see that we might not be alone in our concerns.

There has not been a major European war since the 2nd WW and there are those who conclude that the EU is the reason for that. But it is always wrong to assume a causal relationship without proof.

My concern is that countries who wish to extricate themselves will lean towards the far right - we have seen this at home. The EU needs to think how it operates if it wishes to keep its members on board and not find countries leaving and being cut loose to sink under some far right intolerant regime.

My feelings exactly, Luckygirl. I dithered and dithered over which way to vote in the referendum and eventually voted Leave for the simple reason that our relationship with the EU was becoming anything but cordial and unrest within other member countries made me feel we could end up as Billy No Mates in a situation where the far right might be gaining ground.

It is a very complex situation - which is why I hate the polarised stereotypes and labelling of Leavers and Remainers. It is far more subtle than that.

I researched the pros and cons of being in the EU by reading articles online from people with opposing views - economists in the main. It was a fine balance. That, coupled with my political concerns about the direction of the EU, and the flaws in its cumbersome administration resulted in my voting to leave - but it was a hair's breadth decision. And I knew the sort of labels that I would risk descending on me.

I have said many times that the referendum was conducted in a disgraceful fashion - the campaigning was crass and did not invite a thoughtful approach.

I think like most people who voted to leave I was reasonable happy with the relationship we had with the eu.
But Maarstrict changed all that. That's when I could see which way the wind was blowing so I started reading everything I could on the eu.
Sometimes I wish I hadn't because once you know what's going on you can't un- know it

I am endlessly puzzled by some people's belief in the potential threat of an EU army. As the article I'm about to post a link to says, there is much misunderstanding about what such an army might be created for and much discussion and many agreements before the army was created.

The EU is already part of armed action around the world with forces put together by member countries on a case by case basis. The US is withdrawing from NATO and with Trump in charge it is being made clear that we can no longer rely on the US for support.

As for EU troops on our streets! The other European countries are our allies. Every agreement we have with them has been agreed to by our government and all EU members have the right of veto. It is an absurd idea, worry about the Russians by all means, worry about British troops back on the streets of Northern Ireland but EU troops on UK streets? The world has moved on from 1945.

Here is the article - www.forces.net/news/what-european-army-and-could-it-become-reality

We have a serving officer AC.

The UK armed forces do go on exercise with armies from all over the world.

I think we all need to be worried about an EU army controlled by German-French axis!!!

Why worry about an army that we would be in or could veto as EU members? Seems a poor excuse for leaving the EU

I think the European Union is in more trouble than perceived by many. Our news and media coverage is so poor in the UK most people are of the belief the EU is some sort of Shangri-la, epitomy of harmony, a paragon of wealth and no social issues such as food banks and unemployment.

How wrong!

France - Rioting by the gilet jeune.

Germany - Still has no governing coalition.

Belgium - Government coalition broke down it now runs on a minority administration. Happy to be corrected.

Czechoslovakia - Not happy, clappy, slappy between them and the EU.

Hungary - Austria and other EU Governments moving to the far right.

Spain - Greece - Italy - France - Croatia et al high unemployment, especially amongst the young.

The finances / banking issues of many countries, including even Germany are certainly on shakey ground.

Jean Claude Junkers State of the Union Address left nobody without a doubt the European Union is carrying further down the road of a Federal State through ' Ever Closer Union'.

Belgium functioned extremely well without any government at all for about 18 months a few years ago.

The Gilets Jaunes are demonstrating about austerity in their own country. I'm in agreement with them in that austerity policies are shortsighted and don't solve anything (and the 'rioting' has been an act by opportunists pretending to be part of the Gilet Jaune movement as far as I can see)

High unemployment is a national problem in any country; though I'll concede that the monetary policy which sets the 'rules' for the euro using countries is misguided (this a verdict of many economists, not me, though I believe them)

The euro 'rules' could well be the source of banking problems. I concede that one

The far right governments aren't proposing to take their countries out of the EU

I have said often enough before that 27 countries will need to be convinced that federalism is the way to go and I don't believe that they will be compliant. I can't see the former Soviet countries being very enthusiastic for a start.

The EU needs reform but I think that the breakup of the EU which Leavers are so looking forward to would cause global chaos.. Putin must be so happy...

And if you want to add to the list of gloom, British politics are in complete turmoil and we appear to be on the brink of civil war well, so the politicians keep telling us

In the news tonight:
The German far-right party AfD voted at a party congress Sunday to campaign for the country’s exit if its demands for reforms are not met by the bloc. AfD was originally founded as a Eurosceptic party, but switched its focus to opposing Islam and immigration after rightwingers took over. Delegates were told Saturday the EU didn’t need destroying, just brought back to its sensible core, and that partners like Austria’s Freedom party and Italy’s League would “walk the path with us”. (Guardian)

POGS
It will be the euro that brings the eu down.
This amount of debt can't be sustained.
For years Germany has been more than happy to play lady bountiful ' helping' nudge nudge, wink wink, to prop up poorer countries ( btw they are making billions on the Greek repayments)
But two things have gone wrong, the German people have had enough of their government giving/ lending their money to keep the dream alive. And now we know that the German economic power house is in trouble.
The views above are from ordinary German folk that I was with in Spain this winter.
I will be with them again soon so the debate will continue

We couldn't vote in the referendum in 2016 as we'd been out of the country too long, in France. We'd seen the mixed feelings there about the EU, and this accounts partly for my mixed feelings about Brexit.
We need to take into account problems that the other 27 are having, and their attitudes to the EU. And the other worldwide economic and nationalistic changes.
The UK is perhaps too insular in its outlook, always an island nation.

It will be the euro that brings the eu down

I actually agree with you, petra to the extent that if anything does bring it down it will be the euro. But I don't think it will get to that stage.

I will be with them again soon so the debate will continue

Doesn't sound much like a debate to me, more a meeting of true minds which inhabit the same bubble.

POGS I think you insult our intelligence. Everything you mention has been well covered in the UK media.

I certainly knew of them all, so I pretty sure most GN members will be aware of them as well.

Belgium being without a government is so common , the news is when they have a working government.

Junkers can want as much further union in the EU as he wants, but it is the 27 who will decide and they certainly do not want further integration

If you want to know what a populist government brings, look at the US.

M0nica Mon 14-Jan-19 21:07:26.

"POGS I think you insult our intelligence. Everything you mention has been well covered in the UK media."
---

Oh dear!

We are ‘an island nation’ as said, probably mentally as well as geographically. But we have our own strengths. We can be good Europeans without being in the E.U.

I do think that people confuse being against the morals, ethics and politics of the EU with being anti European.

I love Europe, have lived in mainland Europe, but I can see disaster looming for the EU it has become too big. The Euro is being kept afloat by Germany and the ECB.

I worry that if we do not leave in March that the UK will be dragged down with the rest. If we leave and have economic problems for a while it is within the UK’s grasp to climb back up on our own terms and not be shackled to other failing states.

Anyone who thinks the U.K. is immune from populism is rather blinkered. Just pointing to minority parties in Europe and saying this is evidence that we shouldn’t be associating with them is simply wrong. If the EU has problems ( don’t we have big problems?) then surely it is better to work together to solve them rather than have this smug superior mentality

crystaltipps, sorry but I have not seen any "smug" posts on this thread, or anyone pertaining to have a "superior mentality"

If anything as "Brexit" related threads go, so far it has been polite and civi with interesting posts.

crystaltipps I agree with you. Look at the British Nationalist extremists that UKIP now fraternises with and I see in Momentum, if not nationalist extremism, a group of people who want to impose their views on everyone. Look at what they have been doing in the Labour Party.

There is a smug superiority in the assumption that the U.K. will somehow be unaffected by events in Europe if we are outside the EU and have “taken back control “ and other meaningless sound bites.