Venezuela. / Chavez / Moduro

trisher so, using your analogy, you would allow your own family to bleed in order to bandage others or allow them to go hungry in order to feed the family across the road?

Cuba has been a socialist state for over 50 years, so the idea they are having to "build everything from scratch" is a little outdated.

Oldwoman70 lets ignore the stupid analogy.
As regards 'building from scratch" do you imagine dialysis machines go on for 50years? I know people who have worked in health with people from Cuba and have visited the country as part of this. The single thing that really impressed them was the ingenuity and dedication of those involved. They build everything. Do you not realise that the US has for the past 50 years blocked imports to Cuba, even medical supplies?
If my children had grown up as well fed, educated and with the best healthcare currently available I would hope that I, and they, would wish to improve the lives of those not so fortunate. Much as I hope they do, and will, act politically to improve the lives of the less privileged in this country.

I would think that during that 50 years, sufficient expertise will have been built up to ensure sufficient equipment was available, or do you think they are scratching around looking for screws and bits of metal to cobble together.

We obviously have differing views about Cuba. You appear to see it as a socialist paradise where everyone lives a wonderful life with the best healthcare. My view is based on the accounts of people who have actually visited the country and seen the difference between the privileged and the workers.

As I said previously, there are some wonderful hospitals and great education available for some, but not for all. Do you think there is not a privileged class in Cuba?

I think we will have to accept that neither one of us is going to change the mind of the other.

Oldwoman70 all natural resources are in short supply in Cuba. Hence the luggage belt at Havana airport carrying tyres/machine parts etc all things returning Cubans take home with them.
My view is based on someone who has worked with Cuban health workers in Cuba and the UK. He was most impressed by their ingenuity and resoucefullness.
Is it perfect? of course it's not.
But it is a society where even the poorest of children can utilise and develop their talents in most fields. So we have Carlos Acosta A ballet dancer from the poorest background, who has reached great heights www.carlosacosta.com/biography.php I wish there was such support for poor children in the UK.

Under all the sunshine and virtue in Cuba that you talk abut in Cuba, Maizie, is a rather nasty underbelly of political oppression and imprisonments and, like all communist countries the bits visitors are shown and what happens in other parts.

Any country in the Mexican Gulf, I use that term broadly, is exceptional compared with Haiti, but there are also the many islands like Jamaica Trinidad, Barbados, Puerto Rico, to name but a few who are just as well developed as Cuba, if not more so and with democratic governments.

Under all the sunshine and virtue in Cuba that you talk abut in Cuba, Maizie,

I haven't said a bloody word about Cuba. MOnica.

And I wouldn't hold Jamaica up as a shining example of democracy and development if I were you. Corruption abounds; murder rate is high and the roads are falling apart. They can't even, in an island with abundant water sources, develop a water storage system that will sustain the population in times of drought. Have you ever been there?

I used Haiti as a comparison M0nica because it has a similar history with the USA as Cuba . Trinidad, Jamaica and Barbados were all British colonies and Puerto Rico has the strangest relationship possible with the USA its citizens having voted to become a US state. All of those countries have high crime and murder rates often linked with drug use, and no-go areas that tourists don't visit.

Maizie, my apologies. The post should have been addressed to trisher, but I would comment that I wasn't making advantageous comparisons, I was merely saying that there is not much to choose between them when it comes to development and problems. It all depends on their history.

Haiti, is the odd out, because it is such a poor and underdeveloped country, that any other country in that area is doing well compared with that benighted country, so it should not be used as the bellwether for Carribean countries.

From the Independent:

Venezuela crisis: Former UN rapporteur says US sanctions are killing citizens

The first UN rapporteur to visit Venezuela for 21 years has told The Independent the US sanctions on the country are illegal and could amount to “crimes against humanity” under international law.

Former special rapporteur Alfred de Zayas, who finished his term at the UN in March, has criticized the US for engaging in “economic warfare” against Venezuela which he said is hurting the economy and killing Venezuelans

"Sanctions kill,” he told The Independent, adding that they fall most heavily on the poorest people in society, demonstrably cause death through food and medicine shortages, lead to violations of human rights and are aimed at coercing economic change in a “sister democracy”.

When I come and I say the emigration is partly attributable to the economic war waged against Venezuela and is partly attributable to the sanctions, people don’t like to hear that. They just want the simple narrative that socialism failed and it failed the Venezuelan people,” Mr de Zayas told The Independent.

The key to the solution of the crisis is dialogue and mediation… There is nothing more undemocratic than a coup d’état and nothing more corrosive to the rule of law and to international stability when foreign governments meddle in the internal affairs of other states,” he told The Independent.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/venezuela-us-sanctions-united-nations-oil-pdvsa-a8748201.html

It's quite a long article and does put more than one viewpoint. Worth reading IMO.

Interesting thread!

On the Caribbean: I am adding some rough stats from the UN Human Development Reports:

Life expectancy Trinidad 71 Jamaica 74 Barbados 76 Cuba 78

GDP per head in US dollars to nearest thousand Trinidad $14000 Jamaica $5000 Barbados $16000 Cuba $8000

Literacy rates Trinidad 98.6 Jamaica 87.9 Barbados 99.7 Cuba 99.8

Average years of schooling Trinidad 13 Jamaica 13 Barbados 15 Cuba 14

Homicide rate for 100,000 Trinidad 31 Jamaica 47 Barbados 11 Cuba 5

Here is another UN comment that I have raised on previous Venezuela threads.

POGS Sat 12-Aug-17 19:12:44

Here is another link to Human Rights Watch :-

www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/venezuela

Extract

Under the leadership of President Hugo Chávez and now President Nicolás Maduro, the accumulation of power in the executive branch and erosion of human rights guarantees have enabled the government to intimidate, persecute, and even criminally prosecute its critics.

Severe shortages of medicines, medical supplies, and food have intensified since 2014, and weak government responses have undermined Venezuelans’ rights to health and food. Protesters have been arbitrarily detained and subject to abuse by security forces.

Police and military raids in low-income and immigrant communities have led to widespread allegations of abuse.

Other persistent concerns include poor prison conditions, impunity for human rights violations, and continuous harassment by government officials of human rights defenders and independent media outlets.

The Venezuelan government has targeted critics of its ineffective efforts to alleviate severe shortages of essential medicines and food while the crisis persists.."

It is worth reading the ' atrocities ' carried out by the regime in Venezuala under the headings :-

Prosecution of Political Opponents
Crackdown on Protest Activity
Operation Peoples’ Liberation
Humanitarian Crisis
Judicial Independence
Freedom of Expression
Human Rights Defenders
Political Discrimination
Prison Conditions

It will always be the case some who have feted the likes of Castro/Chavez and Moduro, those who have praised them and their Socialist Governments will continue to do so. They will apportion blame for all the woes of Venezuela onto other individuals, nations and organizations but at the end of the day Moduro is the one to take the blame for HIS actions.

Haiti has such a long and complicated history. It is a poor country whose problems have been exacerbated by the amount of international debt it has had and still has. The French demands for payment for slaves (and that this was done) is particularly unacceptable. If you are interested en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti

Why are we still saying that Venezuela is a socialist country if more than half of the means of production are in private hands?

Not that I condone that atrocities committed there - especially bad as the governments have styled themselves as socialists which they clearly aren't.

Still, the US petroleum companies are poised to take over soon!!

Which is what they have always wanted -funny how things work out isn't it

Yes trisher!

If Venezuela is not a Socialist country then what is it? Well it could be argued a Dictatorship now full of corruption.
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POGS Sun 27-Jan-19 10:35:36

grannyP

I am sorry but I still do not understand why you say it is a
' right wing coup'?

Juan Guaidó is a member of the ' RIGHT WILL ' party which a ' Centrist Social - Democratic Party ' ' RIGHT WILL ' joined The Socialist International which seeks to establish democratic socialism. It consists mostly of democratic socialist, social-democratic and labour political parties and other organisations.

What or why would the likes of Corbyn/Abbott/McDonnell et al call it a Socialist Government we should aspire to / could learn from.?

There is a wonderful article on p15 of the I today. It is called Chavismo's blind cheerleaders and is written by Mark Wallace. It can also be found here
www.pressreader.com/ He looks at the argument put so eloquently by Grannypauline that there has never been a truly socialist government and dissects it and then looks at the way ardent socialists from other countries support it, then cling to it despite all before trying to say that they always had their doubts and had only been trying to help.

What is sad is that I have read many such articles as they have to be written again and again as each 'Socialist miracle' goes down the pan in exactly the same way.
I

One should never underestimate the powers of wealth and capitalism that have a vested interest in undermining socialism.

One should never underestimate how Socialism as provided under the governance of the likes of Moduro undermines Socialism.

Becaus its not socialism - as evidenced by the amount of property in private hands. We socialists want to nationalise everything you know!

trisher

" We socialists want to nationalise everything you know!"

No trisher not all socialists want to ' nationalise everything ' those who are from the far left of socialism do and it is refreshing to read that you have made your position clear.

Oh POGS such a pity you don't have a sense of humour

Humour , how weird.

If as you say :-

"Becaus its not socialism - as evidenced by the amount of property in private hands. "
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You and Grannypauline have both posted to the effect Venezuela failed because it did not nationalise enough/ not Socialist enough.

You previously posted :-

" Cuba has actually a working system of socialism which has enabled it to survive and indeed to help out some of the poorest and most damaged counries in the area."
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Does Cuba have ' full socialism ' ?

I think Cuba is another country to watch in the near future.

One should never underestimate the powers of wealth and capitalism that have a vested interest in undermining socialism

Hmmm. Above is the argument ALWAYS used by socialists to deflect the shortcomings of their system.

It's always the fault of those nasty, right wing capitalists.

I believe the USA is to blame for the chaos, starvation and hell that is socialist Venezuela?

Read MaizieD's post from yesterday Day 6 but here's a section
Former special rapporteur Alfred de Zayas, who finished his term at the UN in March, has criticized the US for engaging in “economic warfare” against Venezuela which he said is hurting the economy and killing Venezuelans

"Sanctions kill,” he told The Independent, adding that they fall most heavily on the poorest people in society, demonstrably cause death through food and medicine shortages, lead to violations of human rights and are aimed at coercing economic change in a “sister democracy”.