Venezuela. / Chavez / Moduro

Definition of socialism:

An economic system in which the production and distribution of goods are controlled substantially by the government rather than by private enterprise, and in which cooperation rather than competition guides economic activity.

Day 6

There is an official United Nation Statement following if you care to read it.M. Mon 28-Jan-19 16:03:20.

Does anybnody else remember the feted by some far left Ken Livingstone when he said this:-

" One of the things that Chávez did when he came to power, he didn’t kill all the oligarchs. There was about 200 families who controlled about 80% of the wealth in Venezuela,” Livingstone told Talk Radio.

“He allowed them to live, to carry on. I suspect a lot of them are using their power and control over imports and exports to make it difficult and to undermine Maduro.” When pressed, Livingstone said he was “not in favour of killing anyone”.

Livingstone created quite a stir at the time . The sad thing is 'some people ' will agree his sentiment on the far left, those who believe they are true Socialists .

How do I get to it?

Socialism isn't about killing people - quite the opposite! We oppose most war.

It's about taking control of the wealth of the country and producing things most people need for free or without profit.

grannypauline

Given your stance why do you think Corbyn/Abott/McDonnell/Williams et al have backed Chavez and Moduro ' knowing ' they have used imprisonment, killing , intimidate, persecute, and even criminally prosecute its critics.?

In fact why do you back such a government?

It's about taking control of the wealth of the country

<gulp> Jeremy Corbyn, Diane Abbot, John McDonnel and Momentum get their hands on the UK's wealth?

You're not selling it very well.

And there is no corruption, misuse of power, hierarchy, jobs for the boys, etc, in that?

It exist in capitalism and profit-making, as we are aware, but let's not pretend socialists are not open to

unscrupulous behaviour.

That's why there must be maximum salary of the average living wage for MPs (about £28K NOT £77K) and I should have said also - no other employment. NO consultancies or similar! Also need to include immediate right of recall by the constituents or the party.

I completely agree with the above grannypauline

God knows why anyone here would back such a government as is in Venezuela POGS......socialists or not!

Socialism isn't about killing people - quite the opposite


It depends if you are talking about social democracy or more extreme forms of socialism.

That's why there must be maximum salary of the average living wage for MPs (about £28K NOT £77K)
Would you abolish their expenses too?

there must be
That sounds rather autocratic!

grannypauline, you are already tiptoeing down the path to the socialist realism of Venezuela. Also need to include immediate right of recall by the constituents or the PARTY.

What happens to freedom of speech, where is the place for the Jeremy Corbyns of this world during his 22 years or so in the party before he became leader? 22 years of opposing the party whip, supporting causes that his party did not support etc etc.

The problem is that your dream of socialism depends on the perfectability of humankind. That in this socialist world, now one will lie or take an unfair advantage, or make the most of an opportunity. It is a benevolent dictatorship, where no one does anything wrong.

I am sorry people aren't like that. Of course there are the seagreen incorruptibles, but most of us have feet of clay. If there is one cake left on the plate and nobody around, we we will casually, at least take a nibble, if not the whole cake.

Indeed your vision sounds positively religious. Isn't your model the one that Christ preached and the early Christians tried to live? But that did not work either and when Christianity became the main religion - and before - , there were dissensions in the group, some people could see how it could be changed and manipulated to their advantage and did so. The story of Christianity ever since has been individuals breaking away from the main group to get closer to the ideal, and then getting less than perfect etc etc.

Isn't this the history of every attempt at Socialist government. It starts with high ideals, but then some of the leaders start imposing their will, then begin to enjoy being in charge.

There will never ever be a true socialist state until humankind becomes perfectable and I suspect that is many 100,000s of year down the road of human evolution, if at all.

I thought we'd nailed the fact that Venezuela CAN'T be a Socialist country until the majority of its wealth producing companies are state owned.

The bit about MPs has drifted in from another thread but I'm not going to apologise as it has obviously touched a nerve. You are quite right - I should have included legitimate expenses for them. The right of recall bit is because MPs represent both their party and those who elected them. When these people feel the MP no longer represents them then they should be able to recall them and choose someone else.

I don't share the negative view of humanity posted recently. All the evidence, from the Blitz and before, and continuing to present day emergencies, shows the opposite. It is only that the capitalist system encourages corruption and bribery and that is yet another reason why it must be abolished!

Socialism isn’t communism

You'd think that it was though, Annie, from GN posters' reaction to it.

I was referring to claims of socialism which realy are communism

For me there is - capitalism, socialism and communism

Day6
It's about taking control of the wealth of the country

<gulp> Jeremy Corbyn, Diane Abbot, John McDonnel and Momentum get their hands on the UK's wealth?

Well there isn't that much left is there? Most stuff has been sold off. Oh hang on there's the NHS! now Mrs May and her supporters can sell bits of that can't they? Big business is already circling. They've sold the family silver, they're now getting rid of anything of value that's left. But don't worry your services are safe in their hands (just don't ask 'whose hands?')

We would still have more gold reserves - but Oh no Gordon Brown sold our gold between 1999-2002!!!

Just trot out the same old same old "blame the Torys"

The Bliyz was also notable for the looting that took place, My grandmother's house was destroyed in the Blitz and was looted. Even the next door neighbour had a go. Then there was all the blackmarket dealing going on.

Stuff that fell off lorries, including much needed military equipment DF worked in what is now called logistics. He knew how carefully everything was guarded and the number of officers whose wives suddenly acquired suspiciously expensive jewellry. And of course the shipbuilders went on strike delaying the building of vitally needed naval ships.

Oh yes, the last war, Blitz spirit and all, was a haven of noble self sacrifice and honesty and good will - not.

True Monica also prostitution increased , people accumulated wealth in the black market

Grannypauline

'It is only that the capitalist system encourages corruption and bribery and that is yet another reason why it must be abolished!'

Do you honestly, hand on heart believe the Socialist country of Venezuela isn't corrupt ?

Could you name a country that you believe is a ' true socialist ' country with no capitalism that is not a Dictatorship and has a good balance of economy , human rights and no class distinction .

Perhaps you could prove your point if you could show an example of a ' true socialist ' country that works.

I also asked you :-

Given your stance why do you think Corbyn/Abott/McDonnell/Williams et al have backed Chavez and Moduro ' knowing ' they have used imprisonment, killing , intimidate, persecute, and even criminally prosecute its critics.?

In fact why do you back such a government?

Do you have any response please .

It is a benevolent dictatorship, where no one does anything wrong.

I am sorry people aren't like that

In a nutshell M0nica. Good post.

I don't share the negative view of humanity posted recently. All the evidence, from the Blitz and before, and continuing to present day emergencies, shows the opposite.

Yes, but you are talking about individuals with kindness, morality and a willingness to help others. People are kind generally, but most of us have experience of power causing corruption or selfishness, even at low levels. Almost every committee I have sat on has had a mixture of people who tend to form splinter groups, wanting different things and employing different methods of attaining them, some underhand and hush-hush. Momentum, which controls Labour has already split the party. The moderates are scorned (publicly) and threatened with deselection if their less radical, less hard-left views are aired. It's "My Way or the Highway" with Momentum, and I believe that's where socialism fails.

Even the ideal of socialism isn't brilliant. People do need to strive and have goals. What is the point of working hard if all rewards are equal? We'd all choose the path of least resistance. However, those who make the rules tend to have a coterie of people around them who enjoy the finer things in life, and have military forces at their disposal too, to ensure everyone falls in line. Look at the reports of torture, unfair imprisonment and death in Socialist Venezuela for speaking out or protesting. The reports POGS has posted make the blood run cold. They are well worth reading.

And Corbyn, Abbot, McDonnel and the awful Chris Williamson et al, our own hard left socialists, support this regime, in an effort to thwart and demonise the UK's ally, the USA.

"Let's have a dialogue" is all the UK far left will offer. It's a bit like fiddling while Rome burns. Much as Trump is disliked, and we are aware of oil riches, the Venezuelan regime is murderous, inept and corrupt and has brought the country to its knees. The inaction and lack of condemnation of fellow UK socialists/the Labour Party, is revealing.

They must never govern the UK.

In an emergency situation, many people, even the least expected, will behave with generosity, courage and altruism - and another group will immediately start working out how they can exploit an opportunity for illegal gain and human oppression.