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Anarchy in the UK? When politicians ignore the electorate.

(165 Posts)
Day6 Sat 26-Jan-19 21:15:53

To quote the Sex Pistols.

We Brits tend to be a mild mannered bunch, unlike the French, many of whom are now sporting yellow vests and protesting in large numbers regarding Macron's political decisions. He has failed the public, and they don't like it.

Our politicians, not all of them, but many of them, are attempting to thwart democracy in stopping Brexit or finding ways to tie us to Brussels indefinitely. Many represent people who voted - overwhelmingly in their constituencies - to leave the EU, but it does not seem to concern them. and they are doing their utmost to keep us tied to Brussels.

From the article

With the rise of the new political classes, a different political dynamic is emerging.

Drawn from similar backgrounds (often middle-class, university educated, with little prior career experience outside politics itself), members of parliament increasingly sound alike, think alike and act alike

The evolution of a monochrome political establishment is producing a radical disconnect, which the Brexit denouement is throwing into stark relief.

What we appear to be witnessing is the corrupt mutation of the notion of the representation of the people in parliament, into _the substitution of the will of the people by the interests of the political class_

*We're entering the realms, no less, of state capture*"

It makes for very interesting, and disturbing reading, whether you are a Leaver or Remainer.

It's written by Professor David Betz is Professor of War in the Modern World, Department of War Studies, King’s College, University of London

and

Professor Michael Rainsborough is Professor of Strategic Theory, and Head of the Department of War Studies, King’s College, University of London.

Their argument is, "for many years now, governments, along with a significant fraction of the population, have calculated that the bulk of the people can either be kept in a state of apathy or bullied into submission."

Time to don yellow vests in the UK? Or do we roll over and die?

briefingsforbrexit.com/the-british-road-to-dirty-war/

petra Sat 26-Jan-19 22:05:55

Day6
I don't believe they have the slightest idea of what they will unleash if this happens.
Our 'rulers' think we have no idea of what is happening in Europe (yellow vest movement) because there is obviously a ban on us seeing it on mainstream media. The idiots don't realise most of us don't get our news from the BBC/ITV/ channel 4.
This movement is now so big that in France they are forming a political party in the hope of putting people in the eu parliament.
A group of intellectuals and historians from 21 countries have put up a letter stating that Europe is facing a challenge not seen since the 1930s.
And why is this? Because 'they' are ignoring the people.
'They' have brought it on themselves.

mumofmadboys Sat 26-Jan-19 22:08:35

I think Brexit will be a total disaster for our country.

GabriellaG54 Sat 26-Jan-19 23:28:53

Day6
confused...is this the type of vest you mean?

ayse Sun 27-Jan-19 01:57:41

What an interesting article. The political classes are certainly on another planet! Brexit or Remainer, IMO is leading to difficult times with unforeseen consequences.

absent Sun 27-Jan-19 03:48:17

Recent politicians in the UK have been ignoring the electorate – apart from just before elections – since quite a while before Margaret Thatcher's time but she certainly accelerated the process. She ignored the MPs in the Commons, who are the people's representatives and first port of call, and it became far worse under Tony Blair who saw himself as president manqué. Theresa May doesn't seem to want listen to the Commons or, even the Cabinet.

Mamie Sun 27-Jan-19 06:21:42

Well in our part of the world the gilets jaunes protest has shrunk to one bloke standing beside one roundabout with a fire in barrel. Sometimes he is joined by a couple of chums, but they never try to stop anyone or engage in political discourse. They always seem quite cheerful.
They are still causing mayhem with protests in our local city (as in many others), but only on Saturdays. Numbers have not increased, the police are out in force, there is damage to the infrastructure and people can't go shopping. The shopkeepers are suffering.
Most people you talk to are pretty fed up with them and the numbers of cars displaying their gilets on dashboards as a gesture of support is definitely down.
The gilets jaunes don't seem to have any coherent message, argue constantly among themselves and include the far right and the far left. If they do try and stand in the elections it will be very interesting to see if they have any policies.
They are very good at saying what they are against but not what they are for.
They seem to think that attempting to damage the economy will not have consequences.

RosieLeah Sun 27-Jan-19 07:15:05

At last people are starting to wake up to what is really going on! Not just over Brexit but the overall attitude towards the population of this country. Not being able to speak our minds about government policies, trying to persuade our children that they have problems with gender identity, or mental health problems (it is perfectly normal to feel unhappy sometimes). Destroying our countryside and heritage so that business men can make even more money. Those of us who care about this country and its future need to get off our bums and do something. Leaving the EU is the first step, now we need to make it clear that this is OUR country and we don't like where it is heading.

crystaltipps Sun 27-Jan-19 07:51:49

Trouble is leaving the EU won’t magically heal social divisions or give anything more to the have nots. The wealthy will still be ok, the poor will be poorer with fewer jobs and the really important issues like climate change will be ignored by our short termist politicians. It’s the whole political sytem that needs changing not just thinking changing a trading agreement will sort out all our woes.

mumofmadboys Sun 27-Jan-19 08:19:55

So many firms are planning to leave the country if Brexit happens. There will be so much unemployment. The damage is already done to some degree.

sodapop Sun 27-Jan-19 08:33:03

I agree Mamie The Gilets Jaunes have been made into heroes in other countries, this is not the case. There has been damage done to our local economy and quite unnecessary disruption to lorries trying to deliver their goods. They are still camped out on a roundabout close to our village and holding up the traffic on a daily basis.

Welshwife Sun 27-Jan-19 08:58:46

The ones I see in our area - very few - are now even more decreased in number and are more interested in setting up barbecues on large traffic islands rather than disrupting traffic!

Mamie Sun 27-Jan-19 09:03:31

It astonishes me sodapop that the GJ are seen as heroes, it is so clear now that professional agitators are involved.
Nobody seems to point out that Macron has already got rid of lots of impediments to the success of small businesses and abolished one council tax for all but the top twenty per cent of incomes. How is that favouring the global elite?
There is still a lot wrong with the economy, but France like everywhere else, has to try and solve the complex problems of how to prosper and ensure social justice in a post-industrial society.

Jane10 Sun 27-Jan-19 09:50:13

I can understand why some people are extremely annoyed at the government potentially doing a 'we know best' and overruling the referendum vote. Will all local MPs vote according to how their constituencies voted in the referendum? I know some Labour ones are or are planning to vote to reflect the wishes of their voters.
I was a remainer but now I'm not so sure.

Day6 Sun 27-Jan-19 09:59:40

The Gilets Jaunes have been made into heroes in other countries, this is not the case.

I completely agree. When there were riots in this country it was obvious that a lot of opportunist low-life freeloaders were engaged in looting, destruction and vandalism.

I believe in France there are groups wearing red scarves as a protest aimed at the yellow vest protesters.

The point however is that Macron has been described as the 'President of the rich' and seemed oblivious to social problems at street level.

This is just what is happening in the UK. There is a disconnect between the people who govern us and those who give them their power, when many elected politicians decide they know best and are doing everything in their power to stop us leaving the EU. We either believe in democracy or we don't.

Leave means leave, or does it? Politicians it would seem are guided by their own instincts and party's sponsors. Industries with powerful and financially strong lobbies have a significant influence on the politicians' decisions because they are the ones who finance the electoral campaigns. Look at how Corbyn, a life-long Eurosceptic, has had to ditch his anti-EU principles.

If politicians do not represent their constituents and self-interest guides them, there can be no bond of trust. This is a cross party issue. As mentioned in the article, "there is an astonishing degree of contempt" for the people. The results of the 2016 referendum came as a shock, which shook those in the Westminster bubble, but illustrated the rift between the people and the political elite.

Day6 Sun 27-Jan-19 10:20:03

As the weeks go by and the March deadline for Brexit grows ever closer, it seems that almost every day there is an MP doing his or her best to thwart the process and ensure the Government's hands are tied. It would appear they want us to remain in the EU, to continue paying billions for the dubious 'privilege' and for the UK to be part of a customs union with all that entails. Leave means Remain to many MPs.

When a Remainer PM is at the helm one has to wonder why she gave away do much of our negotiating power?

If they (politicians) miscalculated people’s position on the EU, then we have no guarantee that the gamble on the people’s willingness to remain compliant in the face of further broken promises and the dishonouring of a clear democratic instruction will go unanswered

Political failure has consequences about which the elite seems to have given no thought whatsoever

I can feel the anger building in friends, colleagues, and in any discussion where our MPs are discussed. They are losing the support of the public. I know of Remainers who are saying the obstacles put in place by our own MPs to hinder a smooth Brexit are becoming ridiculous. As our traitorous MPs cling to Brussels, their negotiators and diplomats can only be sneering at us. Are we happy to accept crumbs from their table in future? (Oh, and of course the taxpayer will pay for them, and they are seriously expensive crumbs, as we all know. Billions every year.)

Many of us have lost the will to live, regarding Brexit. It's become a farce. However, MPs should be watching their backs. The people tend not to forget - or do they, and is this what our politicians are banking on?

Davidhs Sun 27-Jan-19 10:43:31

Everyone wants change as long as it does not affect them personally,
In the UK we are not as passionate about protests and demonstrations as out French neighbours, there protests regularly get violent and out of hand. Macron has been genuinely trying to create a more equal society and in trying to increase taxation so that more could be spent on social services, ran headlong into fuel price protests.
The reality is that to raise any significant taxation revenue it has to apply to the majority of tax payers not just the wealthy. The rich minority will not protest of course but they will find ways of avoiding tax and even live overseas if that suits them. We see this all the time in the UK where celebrities set themselves up as companies to avoid tax and top sports persons go and live in Monaco or some other haven. Capital taxation sounds popular but as soon as tax changes are made the value of the asset falls and you can only tax a wealthy property owner if he actually makes a profit on the sale.

GrannyGravy13 Sun 27-Jan-19 10:49:50

It was reported on BBC news this morning that the top 1% of earners pay 28% of all revenue collected by HMRC.

So calls of “tax the rich” are somewhat misplaced.

Day6 Sun 27-Jan-19 10:53:08

In the UK we are not as passionate about protests and demonstrations as out French neighbours, there protests regularly get violent and out of hand.

I agree David. I do think our politicians are relying on the people to give up without a fight, to take the path of least resistance and accept that they knew what was best for us, and that the democratic will of the people was worthless.

The gap widens.

I

POGS Sun 27-Jan-19 11:13:42

I think when it comes to taxation I rely on the facts and what ' brings in the most revenue '. What is tax for if not raising funds.!

There are of course two patterns of thought .

A). Tax the rich till they bleed , ba----s , we will get them.

B). Keep taxation as low as possible for all to encourage payment not avoidance.

The facts show that the latter method has a higher ' tax return ' and I do not care about class warfare I will go for the method that brings in the most money required for government spending.

As for the G J , indeed any demonstrations , they start out with passion but stand the risk of quickly being taken over by activists and anarchists who travel from country to country and will use any march/demo to cause destruction and civil unrest.

When a march/demonstration is about finance what is the sense in causing destruction and economic losses to prove a point?

Jane10 Sun 27-Jan-19 11:15:53

So true.

Nonnie Sun 27-Jan-19 11:39:22

I think it must be very difficult for our politicians if they take into account how close the vote was. So far I haven't seen much thought given to about half the population who didn't want to leave. The only way to prevent more bad feeling is to allow everyone to vote on the deal or stay.

Of course we won't go round in yellow vests, we would have to buy them grin I think French motorists are obliged to carry one in their car.

Jane10 Sun 27-Jan-19 11:56:11

I don't think another vote would be any more conclusive. I think Theresa's deal is the best compromise which is all we could hope for. Both sides not happy but at least we could then get on. There'll be problems to deal with but there always are.

Nonnie Sun 27-Jan-19 12:00:11

Jane what if we had a vote based upon known outcomes and Leavers had a resounding win? I think that would stop the unrest and Remainers would accept it. At the moment we have a situation where about half the population is very unhappy and feel that the vote should have been null and void. I think the only way to solve it is to ask the electorate to vote on the facts.

winterwhite Sun 27-Jan-19 12:07:21

I have never felt so low as I do today about the state of the country. A letter in the "i" yesterday made the valid point that ministers who oppose a second referendum on the grounds that the nation has already decided now ask MPs to vote a second time on a deal that was far more comprehensively defeated two weeks ago. Today the S Times reports aggressive talk of the govt's apparent readiness to invoke martial law to quash possible civil unrest in the event of no deal.

Martial law! Is this really what Brexiteers are prepared to see happen rather than a general election?