Petition to stop Brexit

I don’t think we’ll be insane enough to do it either MaizieD but it’s the prospect of it that focuses minds.

Yes the EU is better prepared but industrialists there aren’t at all keen and pressure groups within the EU are demanding a deal. Even preparation for one is expensive. Time to negotiate?
We shall see.

Senior Tories were accused of “sniping” at the huge numbers of campaigners set to take part in a giant march for a fresh Brexit referendum, a day after it was announced.

A Brexit minister, Martin Callanan, came under fire after he branded next month’s “Put It To The People March” – part of The Independent’s Final Say campaign – “desperate stuff”.

James Cleverly, a Conservative vice-chairman, tweeted sarcastically: “The only thing that might make me change my mind is a bloke in a blue hat with yellow stars shouting ‘Stop Brexit’. Yep, that might do it.”

The reaction came despite last October’s demonstration attracting up to 700,000 people in London alone – and successfully fuelling support for a new referendum at Westminster.

Anna Turley, a Labour supporter of the People’s Vote campaign, said the two men were “sniping at the huge numbers of people in this country who want to make their voice heard”.

“Ministers should listen to the calls of those who feel betrayed by broken Brexit promises, worried about the damage caused by either this deal or no deal, as well as those who just want clarity and closure about our country’s direction – rather than years more of argument and division,” she said.

The next demonstration will be staged in London on March 23, just six days before the UK’s scheduled departure from the EU.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-final-say-senior-tories-dismiss-desperate-martin-callanan-a8783481.html

Did anyone see AM's interview with the Chief Executive of Airbus who was trying to put a balanced point of view.
Asked if brexit would cause enormous damage and job losses, she said it wouldn't immediately as they have many orders to fill in the shortlist to medium term.
Long-term she has less confidence and many jobs may be moved to their overseas sites.
However, she said that the company has spent tens of millions of euros to ensure that brexit damage is contained.
This is money which could have been spent on research, on training 100's of apprentices and much more. Even without brexit now, that cash has gone - wasted and never to be recovered but necessary because of this pointless and damaging exercise "in democracy".

Esspee - what kind of Democracy- there are many different models all over the world. Many would say that the British system, a Parliamentary Democracy where we elect MPs to represent us and make decisions on our behalf- and with a unique system of First Past the Post system of election- where a huge % of votes are immediately ignored and thrown into the bin- is not very democratic. Certainly the House of Lords is totally alien to Democracy.

But whatever system of 'Democracy' is installed - a vote or Referendum based on massive lies, proven fraud, and proven foreign interference via dirty money- can never ever be considered 'democratic. The police is dragging its feet- perhaps gagged by this Governement as 'too politically sensitive at the moment' re making serious enquiries and prosecuting those who committed fraud as described about. How is that democratic, in any shape or form?

We have two problems with our democracy - an unwritten constitution and an undemocratic FPTP voting system.

Although the constitution is unwritten certain features are recognised as being law.

We are a parliamentary democracy so MPs are representatives, not delegates. That means that it is their duty to act for the best interests of their constituents and the country, not to follow blindly the majority view of their constituents.

Secondly, referendums, which are rare in our system, are always advisory. Although it is true that David Cameron said the government would act in accordance with result of the EU referendum, he had no right to do so.

Thirdly, one parliament is not empowered to tie the hands of any future parliament. This present parliament, elected in June 2017, is not bound by the actions of the previous parliament, which triggered Article 50 in March 2017 (without any sort of plan of even agreement within the cabinet, let alone the Tory party, the parliament or the country).

The law states that the UK can, unilaterally revoke Article 50 any time before the expiry date and that is exactly what a responsible parliament should do

I don’t think we’ll be insane enough to do it either MaizieD but it’s the prospect of it that focuses minds.

It might focus the UK government's mind, Urmstongran but it has no effect on the EU because they know that we will come off worst and they will have the upper hand in any 'concessions' they might make to help us out.

May is using the 'threat' to try and bring her party and parliament in line to vote for her deal. It won't bring the ERG MPs in line because 'no deal' is just what they want. And I suspect that it won't bring much of parliament into line either because they know that there are alternatives available, such as revoking or extending A50.

From the Irish Times.
Australia will fast track a trade deal in the case of a no deal.
The uk and Australia have been discussing the deal for 18 months.

I’m sure we could fast track trade deals with many countries, in the case of Australia, or indeed New Zealand their focus is Asia and much of the trade is Chinese controlled. Although we have very close ties trading opportunities are going to be quite limited.

Any tarrifs or quotas might change but I wouldn’t bet on volume increasing much.

Meanwhile, Brexiteer UKs richest man Jim Radcliffe has moved to Monaco to avoid paying U.K. tax.
So far so predictable/ hypocritical
www.theguardian.com/business/2019/feb/17/brexiter-jim-ratcliffe-uk-richest-man-plans-save-4bn-pounds-tax-monaco-move?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Again I have to disagree with you MaizieD as I believe the prospect of a no deal will affect the EU greatly. The cost involved is immense and as I said, several of the EU countries are pressing their negotiating team to come up with a deal. The industrialists in Germany for instance are not at all happy and Angela Merkel is under a lot of pressure.

To say they won’t be as affected is silly - a bit like the ‘they need us more than we need them’ statement.

And as for MP’s extending Article 50 I’m not so sure - now Farage has his ducks in a row should that happen. MP’s will be very wary of his new party putting a lot of MEPs forward in the upcoming EU elections should Article 50 be extended. The EU don’t want that either - argy bargy dissenters in their voting system!

Plus on the news this morning Yvette Cooper and others are seriously planning a split from Labour. Another division. Another dilution of intent. Remainer MPs can’t seem to get behind one central idea to stop Brexit so they fail.

We will be out on 29 March. I’d put money on it. Hopefully with a deal - but we will be out.

That will be a very sad day then.

Not for all of us Ginny

But mcem when we leave and in time strike up new & hopefully better deals without the protectionism deals that are insisted upon by the EU a lot of people (even some experts) think the U.K. will flourish.
Two sides to every argument.
One will be right.

And there you have it in a nutshell. Those two views reflects the difference in the votes in the referendum. A split. A difference.

Two intelligent, caring, strong women who care very much about what's happening to our country and to our family and we can't agree because it's affecting us in very different ways. I say again - that's sad.

For that reason Ginny I do agree, it is sad.

Again I have to disagree with you MaizieD as I believe the prospect of a no deal will affect the EU greatly

I'm afraid you are disagreeing with something that I haven't actually said, Urmstongran. Re-read my posts.

in time strike up new & hopefully better deals without the protectionism deals that are insisted upon by the EU a lot of people (even some experts) think the U.K. will flourish.

There's that 'hopefully' word again.

1. How do we achieve better deals when we are negotiating from a position of weakness?
2. Please explain these 'protectionism deals', with examples, and how they have disadvantaged the UK.

Genuine request for information.

I was responding specifically to your last post MaizieD from Sun 17-Feb-19 19:57:01

This:
As the UK aims to leave the European Union and make its way as a trading nation across the world, international trade secretary Liam Fox may want to spend some time worrying about the protectionist policies being implemented by dozens of countries.

It would seem the main offenders for creating harmful trade policies are the US and EU, according to an analysis by law firm Gowling WLG.

Another example MaizieD

Rather than put tariffs which break WTO rules, some countries *such as the EU*prefer to strangle trade by imposing red tape, bureaucracy and things which increase the administration cost of trading. This has the same effect of discouraging imports. For example, the increasingly stringent standards set by the private sector in the area of certification and traceability create difficulties for developing countries exports. (EU Protectionist measures)

An increasingly popular method nowadays is to strangle traders not with high tariffs, which are easy to spot, but with red tape, which is not.
(Protectionism Alert at Economist)

You are clever MaizieD and very well read. I’m sure you know of other instances yourself where the EU operate using protectionist practices. I’m surprised you asked me to provide examples really.
I think you are being disingenuous.

One more - (more for information other posters in case they’re finding these examples helpful) :

The EU Common Agricultural Policy (CAP). Despite reforms and some reduction in tariff rates, the EU still impose substantial tariff rates on many agricultural markets. The aim is to increase prices for domestic European farmers in order to increase their income.

I was responding specifically to your last post MaizieD from Sun 17-Feb-19 19:57:01

Try reading it again

God MaizieD this is like homework! Sorry to be dim. Can you put me out of my misery and tell me?

Sorry I’m probably not concentrating as I’m also reading about the SEVEN Labour MP’s who have quit their party.

Ps can I also mention that when you ask for examples (which I took time to source for you & gave 3) you rarely comment back!
What’s your take?