Petition to stop Brexit

Ug, you have quoted things from heaven knows where (you haven't made clear what is a quote and what are your own words, nor have you linked to a source. Both of these are helpful things to do) and you haven't given any examples.

Apart from this, of course:

The aim is to increase prices for domestic European farmers in order to increase their income.

Specifically in the UK, are you aware that most UK farmers would be unable to continue in business without the EU Single Farm Payment (SFP)?

There have been some well publicised high profile cases of some owners of large landholdings getting large amounts of money from the SFP, with the implication that the money is all going straight into their greedy pockets whereas we have no idea how much of it is ploughed into their businesses. While it is clear that economies of scale count for a great deal in the agricultural business I don't buy the contention that the money is just enriching major landowners.

The majority of farmers depend on the SFP to keep their businesses going. The Free Trade enthusiasts would say that it just keeps inefficient farmers going but I think there are other points to be considered, a vital one being what would happen if these farmers went out of business?

Would anyone be able to make these farms more 'efficient'?

If farmers go out of business with no-one to replace them how would this affect our food security? Leavers are blithely saying that we should buy more British produce but there won't be much to buy if farms are no longer working. We would be even more dependent on food imports and our dependency would make us more vulnerable to having lower standards imposed as part of trade deals. At present our deals through the EU ensure high standards of food safety. This is protecting the population. Do we seriously want to become vulnerable to lower food standards? And if we try to impose similar standards on our post Brexit trading partners isn't this 'protectionism, too?

The environment. At present the SFP comes with requirements for protecting the environment, such as controls on fertiliser run off into water sources and requirements to provide habitats for wildlife. This adds to farming costs but a lot of people consider the preservation of a healthy environment and the preservation of our wildlife to be a worthwhile objective. Of course, if farmers go out of business and the land lies idle we won't have runoff problems and wildlife will have a heyday...

Then there is the question of the industries dependent on British farming. Horseracing for example. What do they do when they can't obtain high quality British feedstuffs? Import lower quality stuff? Food miles? How does that help us fight climate change?

What do we do with the empty land?

What do we do with the farmers and agricultural workers who lose their employment? The businesses that supply farmers?

It's all very well to cry 'protectionism', but it's quite another thing to look at the implications of allowing our farming industry to go to the wall...

Actually, I believe that the government has tried to reassure farmers that they won't suffer loss of subsidy after Brexit. So we just replace EU protectionism with UK protectionism?

It's like homework for me, too, Ug. I didn't expect to spend part of my morning thinking about the implications of removing the SFP in the interests of 'free trade'.

But why should I be convinced by unsourced opinions and generalisations?

No, MD I think the government’s idea is to use some of the savings we will make (from not paying so much money to the EU once we are out) to cushion the farmer’s loss of EU money in the interim. Honestly I fail to see how that can even be deemed ‘protectionism’. It’s money to transition. The arable farms won’t have fields of nothing for which they receive money. They will be able to grow more crops without the protectionism of the EU dictating that fields have to lie fallow.

I do like to think better minds than ours are on the case.
All will be well.
My brain hurts I’m off to make myself a coffee and read about the news of the breakaway Labour MP’s.

Rest your brain a bit too. It’s not good for our blood pressure either....

I'm sorry, Ug but you didn't give me any specific examples. Which particular EU deals offer tariff free trade but then impose big non-tariff barriers?

The arable farms won’t have fields of nothing for which they receive money.

Arable farms don't have fields of nothing for which they receive money. That was 'set aside'. It hasn't been operative since 2008

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set-aside

This is what really bothers me. These beliefs about EU practices which persist even though they are no longer true.

I know this is old and I have no idea if it's stopped. But it shows what has been happening.https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/eu-subsidies-deny-africas-farmers-of-their-livelihood-478419.html

MaizieD
But once upon a time it was true.
It's like saying " have you stopped beating your wife"

I don’t know MD
I don’t have your encyclopaedic mind.
But, like you, I have one vote! Must make you darn mad eh?
??

Once upon a time, petra, our economy was based on slavery and the exploitation of 'conquered' countries.

Talking about 'protectionism, Urmstongran

There is a handy chart accompanying this article, ranking the biggest countries/blocs on their protectionist practices. Note where the EU comes

www.businessinsider.com/the-us-is-the-most-protectionist-nation-2015-9?r=UK

I don’t have your encyclopaedic mind.

I don't have one either. I have to keep looking things up and checking them. But I'm not prepared to take general statements and opinions at face value. You (and I'm using the term generally here, not specifically) want to convince me that the EU is bad, you give me specific examples so I can make my own judgement.

The problem is that the Leave campaigners told such incredible lies, and so many of them, that it is very hard to separate truth from fiction. So I mistrust everything until proven otherwise. I'd really like to be convinced that all this mayhem is worth something, but it's just not happening.

But, like you, I have one vote! Must make you darn mad eh?

It doesn't make me mad at all. Everyone is entitled to vote however they wish to. I think I'm making you cross, though...

Signed. What with the illegalities and mysterious funding of the Leave campaigns, why on earth our government continues to take this seriously is beyond me.

The number continues to rise.

124,601 a moment ago.

Janetra6, what’s your views on Honda and Nissan, I suppose I should really ask those Brexit supporters who believe that are leading us into utopia, it will take years to rebuild the local economies in Sunderland and Swindon ?

I stand by what The Economist posited maryeliza

Rather than put tariffs which break WTO rules, some countries such as the EU prefer to strangle trade by imposing red tape, bureaucracy and things which increase the administration cost of trading. This has the same effect of discouraging imports. For example, the increasingly stringent standards set by the private sector in the area of certification and traceability create difficulties for developing countries exports. (EU Protectionist measures)

An increasingly popular method nowadays is to strangle traders not with high tariffs, which are easy to spot, but with red tape, which is not.
(Protectionism Alert at Economist)

I think we all realise the EU has weaknesses and there are many areas for improvement. However, we have every right to change our mind now that we are seeing more clearly some of the implications of leaving and witnessing the UK Gov's failure on many fronts, including their inability to have meaningful trade talks with other countries (instead alienating them at an apparently ever-increasing rate!).
TM's position that it would be undemocratic to change our mind just doesn't hold water. Consider a family group who "voted" in January, after considering options, to go on holiday in June to a new resort after studying the prices, facilities and pictures in a glossy brochure. They then find out in May from someone who has been ( and has the photos etc to prove it) that the hotel is half-built, has no swimming pool, 80% of the guests have suffered food-poisoning and it is 2 km, not 200 metres, to the beach. Would they agree to go anyway as it would be undemocratic to overturn their original choice?
Brexit poses such a risk to the economy, health, safe food supply, and much more for generations to come that it would be lunacy not to reconsider.

MarthaBeck look here:

JAPAN FEBRUARY 18, 2019 / 3:24 PM
Honda plan to close UK plant is not due to Brexit: lawmaker

LONDON (Reuters) - Japan’s Honda plans to shut its British car plant in Swindon by 2022 with the loss of 3,500 jobs but the decision is not related to Brexit, a local lawmaker told Reuters today.

Justin Tomlinson, who voted for Brexit in 2016, said he had met with the business minister and representatives from Honda who had confirmed the plans.

“They were due to make a statement tomorrow morning, it’s obviously broken early,” Tomlinson, lawmaker for North Swindon, told Reuters.

“This is not Brexit-related. It is a reflection of the global market. They are seeking to consolidate production in Japan.”

But how will workers losing their jobs pay their mortgage/rent and keep themselves and their families until the good times we're promised by Brexiteers finally arrive?

Sorry maryeliza my post Mon 18-Feb-19 19:13:40
Was meant in response to MaizieD
Oops!

Not sure yet Ginny42 but we can’t let Brexit take the blame for the slow down (world wide) in sales in car manufacturing. Ever since the emissions lies were told about diesel cars, demand has tailed off.

Did you read the Business Insider link, Urmstongran? EU one of the least protectionist of the large trading entities. Most protectionist is the US. That's going to be fun when we try making trade deals with them...

Who wrote the Economist article?

And perhaps you may have found an example for us?

I'm finding this world wide slowdown in car sales very puzzling. Why aren't people buying cars any more? If they don't want to buy diesel why aren't they buying petrol?

You need to do some Googling MaizieD then you would know the answer, there is plenty of information on it.
A few factors in Japan are an ageing population not driving anymore, and younger ones not wanting to bother with the expense of running one, especailly if they live in a city, and Japan has great public transport links.
For Europe and the US, ditto some of the above reasons and people keeping cars longer ( not changing cars as regularly)
For economic reasons and those hoping electric cars will be coming along soon.
The US/China trade wars have had an effect too.Lots of reading out there if you are genuinely interested.

www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-6564055/UK-new-car-sales-record-biggest-fall-financial-crisis.html 'financial website of the year'

Gives some useful figures of UK new car sales.

2,367,147 new cars were registered in 2018 - which is a year-on-year drop of 6.8%

They say that's down 174,000 on 2017 and the biggest yearly decline in sales since 2008

Of course the problems with diesel fuel, believed to be safer than petrol, being proved to be more dangerous to health, has affected sales and demand fell by almost a third.

They go on to say that the combined introduction of stricter emissions rules in September and waning consumer demand ahead of Brexit also took a toll on sales, according to the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders.

Lastly that the UK industry body has predicted another 2% decline in registrations in 2019.

Yes, there is a drop in new car sales in the UK. I notice there are some 0% interest offers on new cars, e.g. Nissan.

Hope this is helpful.