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Are those condeming the Labour Party confusing Anti Zionism with Anti Semetism

(266 Posts)
Joelsnan Sat 23-Feb-19 15:02:15

Personally I consider quite a lot of what Israel does towards the Palestinians and their neighbours abhorrent, however this is done in the Zionist mission to further the state of Israel. The majority of Jews throughout the world are just ordinary joe bods like you and me who should not be tarred with the same brush as the Zionists.
I would suggest the issue within the Labour Party is actually anti zionism and not anti semitism am I wrong?

Iam64 Sat 02-Mar-19 10:41:45

I’m not afraid of Corbin or his
Policies. I don’t believe he’s racist. My fear is he is unpopular, unable to unite and lead the LP. Canvassing in
Our deprived town meant far too many people saying they couldn’t vote labour with him as leader. I accept the daily fail is on a mission to undermine him but, he seems unable to manage the media. Under pressue he goes grumpy grandad.

Anniebach Sat 02-Mar-19 12:32:31

Iam the media cannot be blamed for Corbyn attending a wreath laying ceremony for terrorists then saying 4 years later saying ‘ I was there but I wasn’t involved . If he was sure he did the right thing 4 years ago then say so.

When asked why he was at a memorial service for an IRA member he said ‘ I was remembering all who had died ‘, that was pathetic , why not say ‘I wanted to honour the memory of a man I had respect for’.

He tries to back pedal on his actions before becoming leader , this is dishonest.

PECS Sat 02-Mar-19 12:46:09

Iam as this debacle goes on his lack of strong leadership becomes more evident. But I agree he is not a racist and I would defend him from false allegations. Especially when some of those allegations are aimed at detracting from focus on the actions of Israel against Palestine. Which I believe some are.

Anniebach Sat 02-Mar-19 12:59:57

Some are using Israel and Palastine to distract from the fact that anti semetism now has a breeding ground in the labour party

PECS Sat 02-Mar-19 13:07:27

But the situation re Palestine and Israel is out there for everyone to see. It is the political support for Palestine that is unpalatable for so many people and it is that that has frightened some into attempting to discredit those that do.
I think the inability to consider this a possibility is narrow thinking.

Iam64 Sat 02-Mar-19 13:25:47

PECS do you believe the political support for Palestine is inpalatable to many? In my circle of family friends and local labour group, and political support for Palestine is a given. I accept some right wing fundamentalists support Netenyahu.

Anniebach Sat 02-Mar-19 13:29:10

Not accepting there are anti semites in the Labour Party but claiming it is all speaking up for Palastine is in my opinion
narrow thinking. I can accept some care deeply about the Palastine Israeli conflict, but I can accept anti semetism is a hatred of Jews.

Is a female MP a whore who should be murdered because she is a Jew? Will defacing memorial stones in cemeteries stop the conflict ?

Anniebach Sat 02-Mar-19 14:14:45

Diane Abbott gave a speech this morning, she has always spoken out against racism, the same Diane Abbott who remained silent this week when her local party discussed anti semetism.

How can some defend the cry ‘ I am against racism ‘ from those who remain silent.

Tom Watson was upset that Luciana Berger was driven out of the party by bullying and anti semetism and spoke out,

Corbyn ? ‘ l am disappointed’.

POGS Sun 03-Mar-19 13:59:48

PECS Sat 02-Mar-19 13:07:27

"But the situation re Palestine and Israel is out there for everyone to see. It is the political support for Palestine that is unpalatable for so many people and it is that that has frightened some into attempting to discredit those that do.
I think the inability to consider this a possibility is narrow thinking.'
---

You and those who do not accept that posters DO accept political support for Palestine is NOT antisemetism are on a hide to nowhere by persisting in denying antisemitism has become a problem since the Jeremy for Leader/Momentum Labour Party took over the Labour Party mechanics.

As EMILY THORNBERRY said :-

". But I know as well, and we must all acknowledge, that there are sickening individuals on the fringes of our movement, who use our legitimate support for Palestine as a cloak and a cover for their despicable hatred of Jewish people, and their desire to see Israel destroyed.

“Those people stand for everything that we have always stood against and they must be kicked out of our party the same way Oswald Mosley was kicked out of Liverpool.”
----

lemongrove Sun 03-Mar-19 16:39:01

Let’s hope that the LP does act and kick them out and speeds up all the looking into complaints instead of the kicking things into the long grass.

Anniebach Sun 03-Mar-19 17:04:13

Formby is so angry with Tom Watson, seems she has more say in the party than the deputy leader

PECS Sun 03-Mar-19 19:03:38

Annie & POGS I have not said * that there are no anti- Semitic members in LP. I have made it clear that I would always oppose anti Semitism wherever it is. Racism is everywhere.

But those who cannot tolerate JC & do not want to conceive there may be an orchestrated campaign, using accusations of anti Semitism, to discredit him personally are as closed minded as people who deny anti- Semitism/ racism exists in LP & elsewhere.

POGS Sun 03-Mar-19 20:43:40

PECS

"But those who cannot tolerate JC & do not want to conceive there may be an orchestrated campaign, using accusations of anti Semitism, to discredit him person Ally are as closed minded as people who deny anti- Semitism/ racism exists in LP & elsewhere."
----
There you go again " there may be an orchestrated campaign, using accusations of anti Semitism, to discredit him personally '

Face the factual evidence and stop with the conspiracy theory and open your mind to the fact this has been a problem for years, there is a common denominator, Corbyns Election as Labour Leader and the take over by the hard left..

I am quite open minded and certainly accept 'anti- Semitism/ racism exists in LP & elsewhere.' So no denial on that matter.

It's one hell of an ' orchestrated campaign ' using accusations of anti Semitism, to discredit Corbyn / Labour when the voices are coming from within the Labour Party and acknowledged by the likes of John McDonnell , the Shadow Cabinet, the NEC and the Parliamentary Labour Party.

There have been Parliamentary debates on antisemitism within the the Labour Party and the evidence given by Labour MP's has been horrendous but perversely denied by those who defend the Labour Leadership and those who surround him.

If the penny hasn't dropped after 3 years + I guess it never will.

Anniebach Sun 03-Mar-19 20:55:27

It never will POGS

PECS Mon 04-Mar-19 14:13:52

But maybe not open minded or politically astute enough to know that it is politically more expedient for many politicians to be aligned to Israel rather than support humanitarian needs in Palestine.

There is a concern, in many circles, that if LP came to power with Corbyn he would be more vocal about Israel's illegal behaviours which are condemned internationally, and that might damage UK business /trade deals with Israel.

So many powerful people want to ignore Israel's atrocities and human rights offences against Palestine. JC does not want to. That makes powerful enemies.

It does not mean I support anti-Semitism in LP or elsewhere.

Iam64 Mon 04-Mar-19 15:12:26

PECS your contributions to discussing these issues have been welcome thankyou

Anniebach Mon 04-Mar-19 15:49:12

What does an MP gain by being aligned to Israel?

POGS Thu 07-Mar-19 13:10:08

PECS

" But maybe not open minded or politically astute enough to know that it is politically more expedient for many politicians to be aligned to Israel rather than support humanitarian needs in Palestine. "
--

I am politically astute enough to understand that politicians such as Corbyn /McDonnell/Abbott et al are aligned to Palestine.

I want a government that does not align itself to either Israel or Palestine . I want a government that is prepared to speak to ' both parties ' and most certainly I do not want a government that aligns with Holocaust Deniers and Terrorist Groups such as Hamas.

Eloethan Thu 07-Mar-19 17:31:14

If you want a government that doesn't align itself with either Israel or Palestine then this Conservative government is absolutely not for you. 80% of Conservative MPs belong to the Friends of Israel group - as I've said before, there is no Conservative Friends of Palestine group.

At least the Labour and the Lib Dem parties contain groups for both Friends of Israel and Friends of Palestine.

There are some stupid and unpleasant people in all parties. If there are holocaust deniers in any of those parties they are a very small minority who most people have not time for. In my 68 years, I have never in my personal experience, heard anybody denying that the holocaust happened. Neither, in my personal experience, have I heard anyone being racist about Jewish people - other than seeing footage on TV of football supporters singing inane and offensive songs, which target both Muslim and Jewish people. That is not to say that I have never heard anyone strongly criticise Israel's actions - I have done so myself. Why should I not? I'm extremely critical of the rulers of Saudi Arabia and the government of Pakistan but that doesn't make me Islamophobic.

As for terrorists, it is not just "terrorist groups" who terrorise. States can terrorise too - as was seen in Chile and South Africa. Yet these nations were supported by some western governments, including our own. But when the terrorising is done by our supposed "friends", every effort is made to maintain a low profile. It was only when ordinary people - then often described as "rabble rousers", "communists", etc. etc. - came together to campaign and protest (often being arrested for acts of "civil disobedience") and the tyranny of these governments became more widely understood, that governments had to change their tune. Thatcher and other Conservative MPs described Pinochet as a "friend" and Mandela as a "terrorist" but why were those that terrorised him and all non-white people not described in the same way?

As for Israel, the UN High Commission Inquiry recently reported, re the recent Gaza demonstration:

" More than 6,000 unarmed demonstrators were shot by military snipers, week after week at the protest sites by the separation fence. ..

... “There can be no justification for killing and injuring journalists, medics, and persons who pose no imminent threat of death or serious injury to those around them. Particularly alarming is the targeting of children and persons with disabilities,”

....“Many young persons’ lives have been altered forever. 122 people have had a limb amputated since 30 March last year. Twenty of these amputees are children.”

.."The Commission took note of the Israeli claim that the protests by the separation fence masked “terror activities” by Palestinian armed groups. The Commission found however that the demonstrations were civilian in nature, with clearly stated political aims."

POGS Thu 07-Mar-19 17:57:01

Conservative Middle East Council

CMEC exists to ensure that conservative MPs and Peers understand the Middle East.

By bringing Conservative parliamentarians together with leading experts, CMEC promotes the discussion of UK foreign policy in the Middle East, and seeks to ensure that this policy in grounded in a deep understanding of the complexities of the region.

It might not be a ' Friends of ' group but it is a linked group to the Conservative Party.

POGS Thu 07-Mar-19 18:15:26

Eloethan

' That is not to say that I have never heard anyone strongly criticise Israel's actions - I have done so myself. Why should I not? I'm extremely critical of the rulers of Saudi Arabia and the government of Pakistan but that doesn't make me Islamophobic.'
----

That is true.

Believing the Israeli government is wrong to illegally expand occupied territories is not being antisemitic is it? It is stating a fact or opinion.

Posters keep repeating the fact not one poster has said anything other.

It is antisemitic to attack a Jewish person, the Jewish race as a generalisation. It is antisemitic to refuse to share a platform with somebody just because they are Jewish etc.

Elrel Thu 07-Mar-19 18:29:05

Today about 40 Jewish groups around the world publicised that they do not equate anti-Zionism with being anti-Semitic.

Fennel Thu 07-Mar-19 19:09:35

As I've said before, there's a long thread on here somewhere about the definition of anti- semitism. Which Corbyn eventually accepted on behalf of the LP: www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism

Anniebach Thu 07-Mar-19 19:14:31

Accepting doesn’t mean agreeing

Anja Thu 07-Mar-19 20:17:27

Just listened to a Jewish MP on Channel 4 saying there is no more anti-semitism in the Labour Party than anywhere else and this is al whipped up by those who don’t like Corbyn. Easy to believe as we see the same here on every political thread.

Ad nauseum

Listening to Margaret Hodge yesterday saying that anti-Zionism was the same as anti-semitism I get the feeling that this is indeed being ‘used’ by these pro Israel Jewish MPs.

These British MPs loyalties are to Israel and they cannot see beyond that. Very odd state of affairs.