Are those condeming the Labour Party confusing Anti Zionism with Anti Semetism

Good for Barry.

Well, at least Barry Gardiner is not in denial mode!

Franbern and Fennel

I posted this on another thread as it was from a debate in Parliament last week:-

Barry Gardiner keeps getting mentioned so it is appropriate to post his words , this is one of his comments during that debate.:-

" The CST does more than work on safety. Its work to record and analyse antisemitic hate crime is integral to our understanding of the scale of the problem that faces us. Last year, it recorded 23 antisemitic incidents in my borough of Brent alone, and 1,652 across the country. That makes for sober reading. Antisemitism is at a record high, with a 16% rise in incidents nationwide year on year and 100 incidents every month. This is the lived reality of our Jewish fellow citizens living under the strain of antisemitism. It is appalling—the arson attacks on synagogues, the desecration of Jewish cemeteries, the neo-Nazi graffiti on posters for Holocaust Memorial Day, the vandalising of centres of Jewish life, the physical attacks on Jewish children at their schools or on public transport, swastikas daubed on Jewish homes and antisemitic hate mail sent to Jewish workplaces and schools. These hideous crimes are a warning to us all. We must do better, and we must be better.

That brings me to the issues facing my own party, the Labour party. It was the Labour party that introduced the Race Relations Act and the Equality Act, and it has put fighting inequality, racism and prejudice at the core of who we are and what we believe in. How can it be that we are struggling so badly to eradicate antisemitism from our own membership? I joined the Labour party because I believed it was quite simply the best vehicle for progressive social change in this country. I still do, but no party has a monopoly on virtue, and in the Labour party we are learning a bitter lesson. For all the strength and passion that we have derived from the mass influx of new members that has seen our party grow to more than 500,000 strong, we have not had adequate procedures in place to react swiftly and decisively to that small minority of members who have expressed sometimes ignorant but often vicious, dangerous and vile antisemitic views.

On behalf of my party, I want to publicly apologise to the Jewish community that we have let them down. We know it and we are trying to do better. We are trying to become the party that we have always aspired to be. We will not stop working until we once again become a safe and welcoming political home for people from the Jewish community, as from every other. The Secretary of State said that we stand here today to say of antisemitism that we reject it. We do. We must."
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He is not a lone voice, he is not the right wing press, he is in Corbyns Shadow Cabinet , he is is a Labour MP who has the guts to speak honestly over the antisemitism issue in the Labour Party .

Why don't some members and commentators who portray they hate racism , bullying, harassment on any other day have the guts to do the same as those Labour MP's and Councillors who have reported this happening for over 3 years?
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There are 2 excellent Parliamentary Debates concerning antisemitism available to read and when Labour MP's are telling of their experiences surely it is time to listen.

This pre dates the EU Referendum by the way.

Feb 2016. Labour peer Baroness Janet Royall, was appointed to lead a fresh investigation into allegations of antisemitism at Oxford University’s Labour Club.

The Shami Chakrabarti Inquiry was established by on 29 April 2016.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d2/Jews_Against_Zionism_book.jpg

Jews Against Zionism, the book.

Fennel racism is racism , it needs defining ? Little wonder it is denied in the party by some .

Annie you will have to try to work that out.
You never answered Eloethan's question about your definition of racism.

Fennel how can any racism be different depending where it rears it’s head , it cannot.

ps agree Franbern.

Annie I tried to make the point, and give reasons, that the nature and roots of the anti semitism in politics is different from that in grass roots Jewish communities.

Franbern Because you have never experienced anti semetism does not in any way mean it doesn’t exist in the party. Luciana Berger and other MP’s have experienced it.

Must say that as a Jewish (non practising) jewess and a member of the Labour Party, all I can say is that I am impacably opposed to the extreme right wing government at present in Israel and will condemn them whenever necessary. I have never experience anti-semitism in the Labour party in any shape or form.
just my personal experience
I do know that Corbyn (I am not a particular supporter of him: has always opposed actively all forms of racism.

I'm still very confused about this, but as far as the issue of anti semitism in politics is concerned, I think it came to a head when Corbyn became leader of the LP because of his uncompromising support of the Palestinians. I know several other LP members who feel the same way, and then criticise the militant Israeli govt.
I see their point.
Once this entered the UK political arena the media entered the fray and extremist views cancelled out reason. The problem in the LP got out of hand and the whole issue became politicised.
There are other aspects - one is the actual situation on the ground in Jewish communities in the UK. As far as I know there has been an increase in antisemitic incidents since the referendum, as against other ethnic groups, but nothing like the drama in the LP.
The other aspect is the general tendency in Europe and elsewhere for a swing towards right-wing views. Which always impinges on Jews and other minority groups.
As I've said before, I live in a very mixed ethnic area, with a large orthox Jewish community and I hardly dare say it, but b'h no major antisemitic or anti anyone incidents recently.

trisher

MY response to your question and the OP is the same as it was in 2016 when anti semitism in the Labour Party was being reported and I have no doubt shocked the decent Labour voter/members.

All I had to do was copy and paste because I hold the same opinion 3 years later.

POGS Fri 18-Mar-16 12:35:13

Being pro Palestinian is not the same as being Anti Semetic is it?

Is 'Israel Apartheid Week' Anti Semetic or not ? Is the call by some Labour councils to boycott Israeli goods Anti Semetic or not. The answer is possibly not but it does leave a nasty taste in the mouth for some but obviously not to others. When/where does the dividing line merge and Anti Semitism is seen as a perfectly acceptable measure to take when Israel is the subject of so much hatred in the eyes of some people and by activism.

I have said on threads before I believe Israel is totally at fault over the occupied territory. That does not make me Anti Semetic. If I refuse to share a debate/platform with someone ' because they are of Jewish birth' I am in my opinion rightly accused of Anti Semitism. If I call somebody a ' Zio ' , a Ku Klux Klan prefered terminology I think that is tantamount to Anti Semitism is it not? Anti Semitism is on the rise , not only in the UK but in many other countries. I am concentrating on the widely reported problems facing Labour and our universities as this is an obvious area to discuss.

The question is about Anti Semitism not whether Israel is right or wrong, nor whether or not Palestinian groups such as Hamas are right or wrong. Both have their own issues and neither can be seen as saints .

All the hundreds of complaints within the LP are highly unlikely to be about those who simply protest about Israeli
‘Hawks’.
Until all this denial ends and people come to terms with the fact that under Corbyn’s leadership, the anti-semites within the rank and file of the LP have had a field day, nothing will change.

That’s because I wasn’t actually answering your post trisher but making a general point. So, to now answer it......
None of those actions to me are anti-semitic, as you would not be making a fuss because you hated Jewish people.
You would be protesting about a hard nosed Israeli government and the Palestinian hardships.
And I still think that for a lot of people, being anti-zionist does spill over into disliking Jews per se.

I doubt if many anti-zionists are anti-semitic or ever likely to become so. They may occasionally be accused of anti-semitic actions when supporting Palestine but that is usually accidental. Interesting lemon that you haven't chosen to say which of the actions (if any) is anti-Semitic. It proves what I have always susected that those who bandy the term about really have no idea what it means apart from at a very basic level.

I have no idea what behaviour/language constitutes anti-semitism to any Labour members, but considering that hundreds and hundreds of complaints are being investigated ( or rather not being investigated!) within the LP, clearly there is a problem there.
It could well be that many are confusing anti-zionism with anti-semitism, but very likely that anti-zionists become anti-semitic after a while and it spills over into hating any Jewish people as well.

Apart from actual abusive language I wonder what would constitute anti-semitic behaviour. Let's take M&S a great funder and supporter of Israel which many who support Palestine believe should be targeted.
So which of these is anti-semitic.
1. If I personally stop shopping at M&S but don't tell anyone.
2. If I do 1 but at the same time message my friends and use social media to say why and encourage others to do as I have.
3. If I do 1 & 2 but also set up a stall outside M&S to recruit other people.
4. If I organise a crowd to stand ouside M&S distributing leaflets and engaging people in discussion and actively promoting a boycott of M & S.
Or are any of them?

POGS
Although not a new member, I do tend to dip in and out of Gransner.

Joelsnan

' where do you think anti semitism within the Labour Party has arisen from and why is it being perpetrated and how?'
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I know your question was to Anniebach but for over 3 years antisemitism in the Labour Party has been discussed on GN. I am not of the belief you are a new poster have you not noticed them..

Since 2016 Labour MP's/Councillors have spoken of the rise of bullying, intimidation and antisemitic behaviour in the Labour Party and there has been too much evidence to deny that is so, although some do try.

There is a common denominator and that is the Jeremy for Leader/Momentum/Corbyn Party that now has holds the nuts, bolts , locks and keys to the Labour Party .

Joelsnan

'Does this report state what the basis if each complaint was?'
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47203397

The data published revealed:

673 complaints of anti-Semitism by Labour Party members were received - a Labour spokesman said this represented about 0.1% of the membership

96 members were immediately suspended after complaints were made and a further 211 were told they would be investigated

146 members received a first warning, and 220 cases did not have sufficient evidence of a breach of party rules for an investigation

Of the 307 who were suspended or notified of an investigation, 44 members left the party
Another 96 were referred to the party's anti-Semitism Disputes Panel

Of the 96, 16 members were issued with a formal warning from the National Executive Committee, six members' cases were referred for further investigation, 25 members were issued with reminder of conduct (a first written warning), and seven members' cases were closed as the full evidence suggested no further action should be taken

The panel decided to refer the other 42 members to Labour's National Constitutional Committee (NCC), with five members leaving before their cases were reviewed

Of the 37 cases referred to the NCC, 12 members were expelled and six received sanctions, while the rest await their outcome

The other members who were suspended or notified of an investigation are either still under investigation or are cases where the investigation revealed evidence that meant the case could not be pursued further

The party received a further 433 complaints which were not about Labour party members.
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As previously mentioned the figures do not include allegations prior to April 2018! The amount of allegations and the reason why not ALL allegations have been made known have been challenged .

Anniebach
Exciting...spill the beans...who are the 'far left here'?
BTW, where do you think anti semitism within the Labour Party has arisen from and why is it being perpetrated and how?

As the Corbyn Momentum party called in Barroness Shami in 2016, then Formby in 2018 to deal with allegations of anti semitism (Which the far left here deny exists) ,
Why are they bringing in Charlie Faulkner in 2019 to deal with allegations of anti semitism

POGS
As stated the central image in the mural is a 1930s american image depicting bankers/ millionaire businessmen two of which are Jews. In the article I put the link to the men are named.
So in this context should the non jewish community complain of racial or religious discrimination because they too were portrayed in a 1930s image called 'If we stand up, their game is over.'

POGS
An interesting read
Does this report state what the basis if each complaint was?

I am just interested to understand where this growth has come from and what has apparently caused it. As far as I was aware we as a country bore no malice towards those of the Jewish faith and they (in general) were very well integrated into society. The only time I would know (without being told) if someone is Jewish is if I go to somewhere like Manchester and see the devout men in their hats and pigtails.