Scottish Independence

Right. I can understand that. Do you think NI who also voted Remain would want independence then? Or are the DUP too popular?

It's rather like asking can the country as a whole manage without the EU and the answer to my mind is no.

Independence has a lot to consider !

I love Scotland. Living in Geordieland I think we have far more in common with our friends over the border than we do with our fellow countrymen and women in the South of England . The down side is that we are in a lose lose situation, forgotten by Westminster and not enjoying any of the perks that my Scottish friends get.

I wish we could all just stay together if I’m honest. I hated the time leading up to the referendum when DH (who’s mum was Scottish ) and I visited some parts of Scotland there was quite a nasty vibe . I remember visiting Perth (on the worst possible Saturday) and watching some small boats come up the river Tay when about 30 or more buses pulled up and hundreds of SNP “thugs” surrounded us . Unbeknownst to us there was a demo /march planned . We tried to escape to the city centre where it was 10 times worse. It was one of the most frightening days of my life.

If Scotland decided to leave the UK and stay in the EU I would be moving there in a flash.

What sparked the SNP into wanting another referendum was losing the first one!!!
I'm Scottish through and through, I voted NO and would do again.I have no wish to break from the rest of the UK. I did vote LEAVE the EU and cannot understand the SNP desire for independence only from UK yet remain in thrall to EU membership.

Maizie- yes the Remain vote which a much stronger majority than Leave in UK - but I think, almost more importantly, how Mrs May and the Governement have totally and absolutely sidelined and ignored Scotland and Scottish voters since 2016.

Framilode- yes we were discussin this with OH last night- could sell up in England and buy in Scotland.

I imagine a LOT of businesses and banks would do the same- and lead to a massive economic revival in Scotland.

I thought you lived in Switzerland jura2?

and cannot understand the SNP desire for independence only from UK yet remain in thrall to EU membership.

I think that they, rightly, think that being part of the UK is greater thralldom than being in the EU. If they were in the EU as an independent country their voice would count for representing the Scottish interests in the EU rather then being dragged along by a UK government which they feel ignores them.

Anyway, this 'being in thrall to the EU' thing is ridiculous. The UK was a highly influential member state.

Very interesting article from the CER (Centre for European Reform) group on the effect that Brexit will have (is having) on the EU.

In 2016 the CER made ten predictions about the effect of Brexit on future EU policy. How do they stand up now, on the eve of the UK’s departure?

www.cer.eu/insights/europe-without-uk-liberated-or-diminished

In sum, most of the 2016 predictions still look reasonably sound in 2019. Brexit may in theory have liberated the EU to do more in areas like defence policy where the UK traditionally obstructed progress; but it has also forced some member-states that would hitherto have hidden behind the UK to be more vocal about their own concerns and more assertive in pushing their own priorities. The Netherlands in particular is striving to fill the void created by Brexit and lead the coalition of economically liberal, pro-austerity member-states.

The big mistake in our predictions: Brexit did not lead to a wave of copy-cat anti-EU movements across Europe. On the contrary, it has been a salutary warning to others. That may be its only benefit.

Urmstongran- Yes, but we still have one very strong foot in England, and a property there- thank you.

www.facebook.com/SovereignScotland/videos/766395580409411/

Gillybob, anywhere north of Watford is forgotten by Westminster.
I wonder myself at times whether here in the NW exists in their accounting.

Scotland has to be the best part of this country having been a few times and also some of my ancestors hail from the border, Cumberland as it was once known .
My D and SiL are doing a tour on their break from Oz in June. I quietly wonder if they're property-hunting while they're there being in their late 50's and " far from home ".

As I've said before elsewhere, Scotland would need to satisfy the criteria for joining the EU as an independent country.
Scotland would struggle to pick up the special perks that the UK currently enjoys such as EU rebates nor enjoy any of the special arrangements afforded the UK.
They would have to consider what sort of deal they are looking for and, in the future, they would have to adopt the Euro.
(abbreviated from Dr Fabian Zuleeg speech)
??

Okay jura2 I was only politely enquiring.
No need for the snippy ‘thank you’.

Yes like ROI, if Scotland were IN the EU while the rest of the UK were out then shed loads of businesses and the financial sector would relocate their HQ to Edinburgh to ensure easy access to EU markets in a pleasant, English speaking environment.

Europhiles could simply relocate to Scotland, selling their homes south of the border to those who prefer to remain in the UK but out of Europe.

I am frustrated that foks on this thread are still repeating the same old one liner mistruths that were bandied about in 2014. To set the record straight once again - All taxes raised in Scotland from Income Tax, VAT, Death duties Corporation Tax and Customs and go to the treasury at Westminster. Big Firms with retail branches in Scotland (think B&Q, M&S, Tesco) pay their taxes where their HQ is. i.e. in England although a 10% percentage of their profits have been accrued in Scotland. Also goods produced in Scotland (think Whisky, Gin, Fish, Scottish beef, Leather, etc. are taxed at the port of departure, mainly the channel ports and thereby this massive tax take is recorded as having come from England.

Under this regime the overall tax revenues credited in statistics as Scottish is hugely underestimated. Meanwhile on the Expenditure side, Scotland is deemed to be liable for 9.something% of all UK expenditure, even roads, railways etc which come nowhere near Scotland and infamously, the massive government spending on the London Olympics, while the UK treasury gave precisely ZERO to the Glasgow Commonwealth Games.

Now that the Scottish Parliament has been granted limited powers over Income Tax only (and has used these powers to reduce tax for those on lower incomes while raising them for the better off) it remains the fact that most Tax and Revenue raised in Scotland goes to Westminster.

I have loads more to say but duty calls, maybe back later.

Granny23 your argument could be for anywhere in the UK outside “the special place” ! How do you think we in the NE benefitted from the Olympics ? We didn’t. We can’t even have a dual carriageway on the lethally dangerous North bound A1 .

If Scotland wishes independence from the the UK, that's absolutely fine and I'm sure that Westminster wouldn't dream of standing in their way, and, unlike the EU , not put so many obstacles in the way, making it virtually impossible! What I can't understand is why Scotland, wanting independence and all that word means, immediately wants to put itself in thrall to the EU?!! ie, Germany and its hanger on, France?!! As for the UK's voice being adhered to?!! I don't think there has been one occasion in the last 40 years that any country has taken much notice of anything we've had to say. In the eyes of the other compliant nations, we're just trouble makers that they will probably be glad to see the back of!!

gillybob do you mean your brother and sister in law here?

Regarding another Scottish referendum, Scottish Labour leader Richard Leonard said last weekend that a UK Labour government would not authorise a second referendum on Scottish independence, despite Nicola Sturgeon indicating she plans to hold one. Does this influence anything?

As I asked before, does anyone in NI think the Remain vote there will mean a push for independence or is the DUP too strong?

Erm, I don’t have a brother Urmstongran so I’m a little bit

Sorry gillybob I am confused too as I know you are 57y yet:

My D and SiL are doing a tour on their break from Oz in June. I quietly wonder if they're property-hunting while they're there being in their late 50's

How would this be possible? Sorry if I seem pedantic I just don’t know to which family members you refer?

I think it was Ellenvannin who said that (10.29 this morning) not me, Urmstongran . It’s easy to get confused on these forums sometimes though.

As I asked before, does anyone in NI think the Remain vote there will mean a push for independence or is the DUP too strong?

I'm not sure anyone could make a judgement on that. The problem is that the excellent fudge that is the Good Friday Agreement suits most of Ireland very well. I think they'd've been very happy to continue it.

Now the Brexit vote has forced polarisation of positions again. The DUP certainly doesn't speak for the whole of NI. Don't forget those Sin Fein MPs who don't take their seats.

Nice to see that Leavers are taking Ireland seriously after they've opened the can of worms

Oh god, so sorry to you both! I must pay better attention.
?

But how could we have taken it seriously ‘before’ MaizieD when it was never pointed out to us at the time?

Yes Urmstongran, Northern Ireland was yet another problem that the leave leaders failed to point out during the referendum campaign. It was just the same as they did not notice that the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties would bring a nonsense to the statement by David Davis that "these will be the easiest negotiations ever concluded."

What a joke.

There should not be either another EU or Scottish independence referendum.
I voted Remain in both and, as part of a country which is supposed to be democratic, I expect the results to be adhered to, whether it was what I voted for or not. Not getting your own way is not a reason for ignoring a democratic vote!!
What I really cannot understand is why anyone in Scotland would wish to become INDEPENDENT from the rest of the UK, whilst wishing to be DEPENDENT on Latvia, Estonia, Bulgaria and the rest of the eu countries!!!! Does anyone in Scotland seriously believe that these countries really have the good of Scotland at heart, more than our British family?? I certainly don’t!
The time has come to believe in democracy and put both debates to bed. We should be a “UNITED KINGDOM” independent from the EU.
Anything else makes any future votes pointless and means that if you don’t get your own way keep trying till you do and to hell with DEMOCRACY.