Scottish Independence

Oh Granny23, I just got round to looking at that clip. Very very funny and such a ring of truth! The sweary words are entirely appropriate but you were right to voice a warning. Thank you so much.

Thank you Paddyann and Muffinthemoo.

I had a lump in my throat watching this.

www.thenational.scot/news/17530456.watch-snp-mep-tells-eu-to-leave-a-light-on-for-scotland-to-find-our-way-home

and here's the important part if you don't have time to watch the clip

www.eureporter.co/frontpage/2019/03/28/leave-a-light-on-for-scotland-urges-alyn-smith-mep

I agree it would be a gamechanger for Indyref2, but the EU can't do anything until Westminster gets its act together ... and goodness knows when that will be.

Yes. Maybe that's why SNP is running down education and giving 16 year olds the vote!
However, after decades of SNP nonsense in trying to run the country maybe even more people will see the need to vote another resounding no!

Three things

1 - I don't have a problem with the requirement of a supermajority for a major constitutional change and frankly we would not be in our current Brexit straits if that referendum had required a supermajority;

2 - Brexit, if it was coupled with very positive outreach from the EU about future Scottish membership would be a massive game changer in terms of any future indyref;

3 - The longer there is between referenda, the more the voting populace is changed by demographic change. Youngsters attain voting age. Older voters die. The body that voted No in 2014 will be qualitatively different from a body asked to consider the issue in say, 2024.

Come on Chucky we all know Kezia telling Labour voters to vote Tory in marginal seats to "keep the SNP" out is the reason we lost seats in the last election ,its also the reason the tories rocketed to a full 22% ....2% lower than they had when their vote PLUMMETED to 24% during Maggie's reign as chief clown .Of course the MSM would have you believe we're all rampant Tories with wee Ruth as next FM......thank god we're not that gullible though there are many who choose to believe the crap they hear/read in the media .

Have been away for a few days, so only just read pops.
Granny23. “For those with only a casual interest in Scottish politics, it is perhaps relevant to note the composition of the Parliament.

Of 129 MSPs;

1 is the Presiding Officer
1 is an Independent
5 are LibDems
6 are Greens
23 are Labour
31 are Conservatives
62 are SNP

Simple arithmetic shows that there is therefore a pro Independence majority in the Parliament (6 Greens + 60 SNP = 66”

There may be a pro Independence majority, but this is NOT indicative of the people of Scotland! The SNP have lost seats in both Westminster and Holyrood in the 2 elections since the Scottish Independence referendum. We are part of the United Kingdom, which is of considerably more importance than being part of the EU. We have already voted on Scottish independence and the Scottish people DO NOT WANT IT.

www.facebook.com/veryBrexitproblems/videos/788645794611275/UzpfSTEwMDAwMTA0MzQwMzUzMzoxMTUxNTczMjE1MDIyOTg2/

United we stand divided we fall.

(Beware! some sweary words)

Independence is not the main issue at the moment. Brexit is. None of us knows where we will be with that tomorrow, let alone next week or next month. At the moment, the shenannigans at Westminster are the priority as they - sadly - have the power.

I can't understand why anyone is making points about how much a second independence referendum would cost compared to all the millions spent so far on the Brexit debacle and the immense harm it has done in all directions.

SNP polling? Very valid!!

Surely that - approx, £3 a head - pales into insignificance when compared with the costs of Brexit Referendum, negotiations, "related and knock on costs" etc, etc, etc. and we are no further forward.

Although the pre Indy Ref VOW promised all sorts of goodies to Scotland if it remained in the UK, none of them materialised after No won, unlike the £££millions bribes paid to the DUP in advance, which have not even secured their loyalty.

Polling shows a majority of Scots favour having a 2nd referendum on Independence when the outcome of Brexit is known.

Perhaps you should have a referendum on whether or not all Scots are happy to fund another referendum.

THE direct cost to the taxpayer of the Scottish independence referendum is set to exceed £16m but the true total, including related and knock-on costs, may never been known.

Caledonian

So it is all bravado , a swagger on the part of the SNP and Sturgeon when they say they would easy win a 2nd Referendum.

I would have thought Brexit was the best excuse for the SNP and even if we Remain in the EU and the status quo remains the same what other opinion could there be that is swagger?

Not in the middle of this omnishambles. We haven't actually been dragged over the cliff yet.

Granny 23 / Caledonian

So am I correct there are ways for Sturgeon and the SNP to call for a second Referendum without ' permission' from Westminster?

Genuine apologies if I am missing the point in your posts.

If that is true why don't they call for Referendum if as they say they know that is what the Scottish voter wants. If ever there was a time surely it is now.

Grrrr
pig's ear, not pigs' ear.

Don't know how that happened.

Thanks Granny23 for that explanation and I hope it answers your question POGS.

For what it's worth, I think Scotland would be welcomed back into the EU with open arms, but the Europeans cannot risk alienating further the touchy British Government which is managing to make such a pigs' ear of the EU withdrawal. Nobody is going to mention Scotland's position until the UK position is settled.

There are many years of negotiating to go yet and who knows who will be leading the UK and how belligerent or otherwise the negotiators will be? My heart sinks at the number of people who think we would be better off out with no deal, even now.

Many people would like Scotland to go it alone within Europe, but the thought of negotiating with the clowns at Westminster over many years - and the fear of what they might subject us to when they are the larger partner (having seen how they have acted towards the big 27) - means Scotland will have to be very very sure of a win before going for independence again.

The time is probably not now, but that does not mean we have to like the current crazy situation which will leave us poorer by far and under the clumsy thumbs of the Tories who mock our chosen representatives and ignore Scotland throughout the whole of Mrs May's 500 page deal.

POGS As explained above the SNP's long stated case has been to abide by the previous referendum result unless Scotland was dragged unwillingly out of the EU and, of course the whole UK is STILL in the EU.

Back in Magaret Thatcher's day it was accepted that all Scotland had to do to declare Independence, was to return a majority of pro-independence MPs to the House of Commons, but this was rapidly forgotten and rubbished when this scenario actually happened at the 2015 GE and again in 2017.

Meantime, the SNP MPs, MSPs and MEPs have had the Scottish Claim of Right (which declares that Scottish Citizens are Sovereign and therefore have the right to determine their own future governance) ratified by the Scottish, Westminster and EU Parliaments. In layman's terms this means that the SG could call a GE where the SNP (and Green?) Manifestoes would include a statement that if they achieved a majority they would secede from the Union, revoking the Treaty of Union, which has now been breached numerous times anyway,

This would be a perfectly legal action under Scottish, Uk and EU law. There has been heated argument as to whether there should be a ratifying referendum to confirm this course of action, but as far as I understand this is not a legal requirement.

Im not a lawyer but I have been told by a lawyer that if two people(countries) sign a contract (union) then at any time one can end that contract and wal away.It cannot be forced that they remain in a contract they want out of .Since the only two countries to sign the treaty of union were England and Scotland,although Scots didn't want it ,then legally we should be able to walk away .We would have a right to everything we have contributed to that is 8% of EVERYTHING in the UK .We did say we would honour the debt they ran up in our name ,legally we wouldn't have to.As I said I am not a lawyer but my friendis a coorporate lawyer and this is what she said .

I watch Parliament Live and if anybody thinks shouting abuse is one sided they are being extremely selective.

Well it would Jura2 if people knew about it, but very few folks watch PMQs live (mostly at work at that time) and this is not something that the MSM feature in their evening bulletins and next day newspapers.

The 'go back to Skye' was by no means an isolated incident. Nor is it a recent phenomenan - it has been common practice to shout down SNP MPs, especially female ones, ever since they first appeared at Westminster. Ask Winnie Ewing about her awful experiences after she won a by election and was the sole SNP representative in the House.

A journalist recently checked back Hansard and concluded that Theresa May had not actually answered a single question from Blackford at PMQs on any topic, including UK wide issues. She invariably answered with her irrelevant stock reply that Scotland voted to remain in the Union.

That question to paddyanne and Caledonian also.

I am trying to understand the truth.

Granny 23

"But the Scottish Government DID ask Westminster to agree to a 2nd Referendum and TM said "Now is not the Time' = end of story and as the rules ARE applied to us lesser mortals, no chance of raising the same proposal during the rest of this Parliament. (although other avenues are available)"
----
As you say ' Allthough other avenues are available'.

Is this information correct or not?

Does the Scottish Parliament have the power to hold another I dependence Referendum.

www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/second-referendum-scottish-independence

"Under the Scotland Act 1998, the Scottish Parliament is not allowed to pass legislation relating to matters “reserved” to Westminster, including “the Union of the Kingdoms of Scotland and England”. This is widely interpreted to mean that any referendum relating to Scottish independence would require Westminster approval. However, the matter has never been tested in court, so there remains some uncertainty about whether Holyrood could hold an advisory referendum without consent.

In 2012, the UK and Scottish Governments signed the Edinburgh Agreement, which temporarily empowered the Scottish Parliament to hold the first independence referendum. This power was transferred using a so-called “Section 30 order”, which “put beyond doubt” the legality of that referendum. The Scottish Government did not explicitly concede that a referendum could never be held without Westminster authorisation. But its preference is to proceed with agreement, since any unauthorised referendum could be blocked in the Supreme Court or simply boycotted by unionist parties."

I have heard many SNP politicians say Scotland does not need Westminsters permission to hold another Independence Referendum and I honestly do not know if that is true or not.

If it is true then my question remains why hasn't the SNP set in motion another Referendum given the EU Referendum result and it's obvious implications. The SNP say the people of Scotland want Independence and they are sure they will succeed.

If it is not true then why say the Scottish people do not need permission from Westminster.?

Has it ever been tested by Sturgeon and the SNP?

I have made reference to Referendums being ' advisory' but I took note of the wording above:-

" This power was transferred using a so-called “Section 30 order”, which “put beyond doubt” the legality of that referendum."

When Blackford is shouted at again, in the House of Commons- with Tory MPs shouting 'go back to Skye' - I really am sure that this strengthens the call for independence, surely.

For those with only a casual interest in Scottish politics, it is perhaps relevant to note the composition of the Parliament.

Of 129 MSPs;

1 is the Presiding Officer
1 is an Independent
5 are LibDems
6 are Greens
23 are Labour
31 are Conservatives
62 are SNP

Simple arithmetic shows that there is therefore a pro Independence majority in the Parliament (6 Greens + 60 SNP = 66 and also a strong 'EU Remain' cohort with the Greens, SNP and Liberals = 75 + individuals from other parties.

Also interesting to note that on many 'domestic' issues the whole Parliament votes For, having ironed out any slight differences at Committee stage.

Well said Caledonai14 You'd think what we are asking for is something never heard of before ...Independence is the norm in most of the world.Westminster still has an empire state of mind and we're one of the last outposts .Of course the fact we are very wealthy in our own right means they want to hang onto us by the skin of their teeth.Ably assisted by folk who have believed all the crap they've spouted for decades..centuries about how we're too wee.too poor and too stupid to run our own affairs. And then theres the Queen and flag contingent ..good orangemen one and all..or rangers supporters !