The embarrassment of the Tories

Still waiting for a country where Marxism works?

Please educate us?

Where In the world?

And presumably it’s so wonderful you live there? Or not? Let us know can’t wait

*GracesGranMK3^

You live In Britain right?? If it’s so crap move to a Marxist country. Seriously send us pics and reports

mycat you will never get a reply to that question, because there isn’t a single country in the world that has ever been a Marxist country. There are different forms of socialist countries, but no communist countries, although some have been described as such. But Marx never described exactly what a post- capitalist society would be like. He indicated that capitalism would destroy itself. But we know that so far he has been wrong. However, climate change may force a change in the accumulation and concentration of wealth. We shall see.

Whitewavemark2
We visit Bulgaria most years. Not staying in hotels but with Bulgarian friends, one of which bought one of our properties in BG so we are very aware of what's happening in BG RE workers rights.
I don't think most of posters on GN are aware of how much power the men with short necks/in sun glasses/ badly made suits with body guards and guns have
Most working people in BG are working in what we would say as 'working below the radar' as they are not registered and not paying tax. This is because they have no faith in the government as to where their tax goes.
I.e. They have no rights.

Yes I am aware that they along with Romania I think are under the EU CVM scheme. I trust that the EU with financial power at it’s disposal will gradually bring these countries in line.

Just as they have done with other countries, closer to home, although corruption was never quite so high.

In my working life I was aware of EU members who tax affairs left something to be desired.

* one of which brought one of our properties *

Seriously really

Many in public life hold both hard left and hard right political views. However, undoubtedly it is how such people carry those views in their everyday working lives and perhaps more importantly within the interactions such people have with others.

By example to the above, Len McCluskey the General Secretary of the Unite Union has always made no secret of his strong Marxist views and how he would wish for a British government to set policy in that direction. However, in 2011 a bitter industrial dispute broke out between British Airways (BA) and its company cabin staff. The dispute dragged on and it was arranged for McCluskey to become involved in trying to negotiate a settlement jointly with the CEO of BA Keith Williams.

Williams had a reputation as being a "hard nosed capitalist" and had been brought in to BA to completely revamp its operations following poor trading results. Against that background, no one on either side of the dispute felt that any settlement would be forthcoming when judged against the backgrounds of both men

However, in less than three days, the same number of meetings and dinner in a very upmarket London restaurant, a comprehensive settlement was brought forward and agreed. It would seem that McCluskey and Williams had put aside their very different views on how the world should be governed, and had instead settled on pragmatism to end the dispute. Indeed it said the two men got on so well in each others company they have remained in contact ever since.

Therefore, it does not follow that because Jeremy Corbyn holds hard left-wing views that any future government led by him will follow a Marxist agenda. Indeed, the present policies of the Labour Party many would argue are very far from that.

As stated anyone can hold hard left-wing or hard right-wing personal political views, but it is how such persons carry those views in their everyday lives that is most important, and it is in that such persons should be judged.

Mind you, I would have loved to be a fly on the wall at the above evening dinner or any dinner since with McCluskey and Williams sat both sides of the table.

I have to agree with you Grandad1943, but using the "Marxist" misrepresentation is an attempt to, yet again, slur Jeremy Corbyn. By extension, this becomes a slur against a Corbyn led Labour Party. I thought it was time to put this nonsense to bed. Holding "Marxist" views is a perfectly reasonable thing to do as we have seen and no Labour Party is expected, has suggested, or even implied that it will follow a "Marxist" agenda. Interestingly we only have the word. No one has described what that would be.

What has become very clear is that, to the contrary, the Conservative party has become a party of wealth, working to improve only the lives of the very wealthy by making them even more wealthy at the expense of the poor and by using the fascist tactic of setting one group against another.

I cannot believe that there will not be those who have long seen themselves as Conservatives who are not horrified to hear that we have been returned to the widest levels of wealth inequality since caps were doffed to Downton like Lords. We are talking about taking us back to before the first World War. Back to when your income did not matter, your hard work did not matter, your talent did not matter. All that mattered was that you were born into wealth.

It's Stockholm Syndrome, GGMk3 The condition where a victim ends up identifying with their abuser.

That's a good explanation MaizieD I have always thought it must be a vague memory of serfdom held somewhere in the subconscious leading people to doff their cap to the Lord of the Manor.

I think Maizie's explanation is correct. People identify with their abuser because they are afraid.

Cap doffing is because the wealthy don't just own the physical money, they own the jobs, the houses, the access to food, etc. And they can make you a little better off than the man or woman standing next to you. It is in their gift. The abused feel that nothing they can do will change that position.

But many of today's "abused", those whose lives do not and cannot depend on inheritance are fighting back - just look at the rise in the average age of the Conservative party member. The young, often earning a good salary, have seen what is happening and are voting with their feet.

GracesGranMK3 Quote [I have to agree with you Grandad1943, but using the "Marxist" misrepresentation is an attempt to, yet again, slur Jeremy Corbyn. ] End Quote.

I agree with your above statement 100% GracesGranMK3, and perhaps I should not have used the term in my above earlier post.

The term most used in the Labour Movent these days to describe left-leaning views are Centre Left, Left Wing and Hard Left I believe. Certainly, when I have been taking Industrial Safety Courses at Unite and GMB Union Reginal Centres, I have often heard people in the Labour movement described as above.

Therefore, perhaps Jeremy Corbyns views would be better described as Left or Hard Left. However, Len McCluskey of the Unite Union openly describes his political leaning as Communist, but he does not bring or push those views in his everyday work with members.

Exactly, Grandad.
Corbyn, McCluskey et al may hold extreme left views but know that they would never be able to put them into practise in a democratic organisation such as a TU or Parliament.
It's only when a leader has absolute power that he/she is able to impose their views, by force.
And TG we haven't got to that stage (yet).

Anyone remember Sarah Tisdall - she went to prison for leaking
I remember very well; however, I'd just like to say that I think that Sarah Tisdall, although she did wrong and broke the OSA, probably felt that what she did was morally right - and many others may agree with her.

I agree Call re ST. I brought up the case because the police used powers to get the Guardian to handover the photocopied documents so she could be traced. Why is the DT not being similarly treated? Oh silly me ?

whodunnit and howdunnit though?
Not by photocopying.

A mountain out of a molehill.
Grief! It's not as if we can't be hacked anywhere by anyone at any time.
The Chinese people's are no more likely to hack us than are the Americans, Australians or Russians.

petra, you crack me up, in your camper van, all bought and paid for,motoring round the cheapo places and waving your Union Jack.

" one of our properties" OK.

I agree that the Conservative Party under TM is not the party of old because Brexit and the Chequers plan has taken over completely. I read in the Sunday Times today that nobody appears to be leading the country and that’s just how it seems. We all voted at the last GE for MP’s to represent us in Parliament but are they? It appears they aren’t by voting against any plan and some now wanting another referendum. They’ll be rerunning a GE next. TM needs to realise that you cannot work in isolation by not including other MP’s when it came to the Brexit plan but after all she’s a remainder so I didn’t expect anything else.

"And TG we haven't got to that stage (yet)."

I have a feeling we have with the Tories though Fennel Because of the fixed term parliament (which I have to admit I thought was a good idea at the time) power has been handed to groups like the ERG who are certainly extreme in their right-wing views and have had more control than their numbers warrant.

no Labour Party is expected, has suggested, or even implied that it will follow a "Marxist" agenda.

Marxism would have us believe it's a 'them and us' system. The poor are oppressed, and we (no Labour) will sort out the oppressor.

The oppressors are the likes of you, dear Gransnet reader, believe it or not. Sigh.

Marxism doesn't allow for familial advantage. Being born to parents , no matter how rich or poor, who encourage their children to do their best is the winning ticket in life's lottery.

Go to any of our free museums. They'll be visited by parents opening children's eyes to the world, even if most children tend to go reluctantly. You'll only see poorer children from working class backgrounds using them if their parents are there, enjoying the free pass, or if they are taken in a school party. I dragged my children to such places, and the libraries and any exhibition or craft fayre near us. My upbringing was one of '50s and '60s poverty, but my parents gave us the encouragement to read, be aware and talk to each other. I was blessed.

Marxism didn't bless me. No one cared about our poverty. Marxism does not take into account background at all. I oppress no one, no one oppressed me. According to many left wingers, those who 'have' are smug. And uncaring. They need to keep that myth going, because then we will all be guilt-tripped into feeling we have to be left wingers.

I 'have' now because of my parentage and my work ethic. No silver spoon, but I do not despise those who had one in adulthood. Those children who suffer may do so because there is no money in the household but money alone does not hold back those who strive to improve their lot. It starts with attitude. (and yes, I am aware of how tough it is to keep going when the chips are down...Labour would have us believe it's the norm. It's not. Many of the poorest children I knew in my working life had splendid parents pushing and encouraging their little ones to do well. Some people cope, some cannot. It has always been the same.)

Virtually everyone has to strive to get on. It is only by the hard work and concern and attitude of my parents that this bread and dripping eating child with only one set of clothes got a decent education - because she was read to, from an early age and had a thirst to know more.

Even those who are well off know that their ancestors had to strive to give their families a better life. Of course some inherit wealth, and have no knowledge of what it is to be needy or poor. One has to hope they pay their taxes and give back, but the man from a poorer background will pay a proportion of his earnings to the tax system too. Overhaul the tax system if needs be, but recognise effort, striving and people working to improve their lot in life.

Our circumstances of birth have always played a huge part in how we'll turn out.

Marxism perpetuates the myth that those who have are selfish, uncaring. The more well off are the enemy.

Marxism promotes the politics of envy and hatred and feels communism solves it and makes things fair. It doesn't. Never has.

Bit simplistic day6 but I think I understand what you are trying to say.

Where did you get this from?

You'll only see poorer children from working class backgrounds using them if their parents are there, enjoying the free pass, or if they are taken in a school party......What?