Playing with fire

Trisher---I would never hit a child if I was on the phone or for any other reason other than if it sheer defiance and determination in a child who knew there was danger involved.

Twisting what I've said doesn't cut any ice with me either !!

BTW, I didn't see in the 60's what I see now, the curse of the mobile phone with its messages of hatred and verbal abuse !

In an atmosphere of 'no smacking' I would not dream of smacking a child.

But I will say this. I grew up in an era where a quick smack was occasionally administered when a child or a situation went too far and I know of no single case where lasting damage was done.

Additionally, how comes it, in this no smacking era that children are growing up depressed, anxious and some knowing few boundaries?

I think there is a distinct difference between an abusive parent using violence (either physical or verbal) to satisfy some desire in themselves and a loving parent offering a quick smack in the interests of the child, for example, if they stray near a road or put fingers or objects into sockets when warned not to.

Many acts of discipline can involve time, effort and explanations so that a physical punishment is averted. But if a child's hand strays near a boiling kettle flex to pull it, no time is given to avert disaster and I would never condemn a parent for administering a quick tap to save the situation.

Polemical solutions are rarely suitable to solve nuanced problems. The all or nothing approach we as a society seem to adopt with nearly all problems today seems irrational and immature to me.

The point is that home for some children is a place where violence is commonplace EllanVannin and all your posturing about what you have seen is irrelevant There were in the 60s and there still are parents who hit their children indiscriminately. Women now can (and hopefully do) leave a partner who hits them, but for many chidren that opportunity will not come until they are teenagers, by which time violence and hitting will be an acceptable part of their lives. Your approval of smacking gives the actions of these parents an acceptability which would not be there if smacking was banned. Of course it's abuse to whack a child who interrupts a conversation but you approve of smacking so how can you complain?

Trisher & Lizzie, great posts.

Sheltered lives,Trisher ? Where did you get that from ?

We Gners brought our children up a jolly sight better than they're brought ( dragged-up ) today ! And under less privileges than this present century. There was nothing sheltered about life in the early 60's where there were lots of working women, myself included who went back to nursing to supplement the income. Children were taught to behave and did so without the need for the proverbial belt hanging from the back door.

It was all about education pre-school and you made time for the children.
How many mothers do you see now with mobiles clamped to their hands while children run amok ?? Lord knows how much of their time is ever spent seeing to the children. It is THOSE parents who are abusive if/when a child happens to interrupt a text/conversation who gets whacked !!
It's todays parents who are violent for all the wrong reasons as described above.

We " sheltered parents " aren't stupid and see all this going on which is a far-cry from the loving parents that we were/are !

I had a son, one of twins who used to go flat on the floor and hold his breath when having a tantrum. After he went
frighteningly blue a couple of times I took him to the Dr. Remedy.......a sharp slap on the leg to make him gasp. Did it in a carpet shop once and was threatened with the police by a bystander who had been standing there tutting.

Taking my name in vain Breeze?!!

We need to remember there have always been the children and teens who would now be classed as anti-social it's not a new phenomenon, the teddy boys, mods & rockers, punks; they were all there on the edges of the way normal young people of their times were expected to behave.

On these pages there are so many letters about the stresses that parents are under now. Let's not forget that for a huge amount of them, the amount of time they get to spend with their children has shrunk to a rushed getting up & out of the house, a couple of hours in the evenings when parent and child are tired and the weekends. It's no good harking back to the days when we had our children, this is their reality now and it's no wonder that parents want this relatively short amount of time to be enjoyable family time. Unfortunately we also know that effective parenting takes time and that's one of the things they are most short of now.

There is no one way of parenting children; what works for one child may not keep working or work for another. An experienced mum told me half a lifetime ago that there are as many ways of bringing up children as there are families, I have since revised this and substitute 'as there are children', for surely if you bring up a subsequent child the same way as your first one, you clearly haven't learnt any lessons as a parent along the way!

I am in the 'anti-smacking' brigade as I always feel a smack from an adult signifies a loss of control. Most parents smack under pressure, driven to the end of their patience by the behaviour of their child and for most that is their cut off point. But some don't have that 'okay, enough now' barrier. This is why for some parents it can lead to more frequent or harder smacking/hitting/beatings.

What are we starting if we tell children that smacking is okay? Transpose "I just had to smack you because of what you did, but I still love you." to an adult relationship and how does it sound? I'm sure there are adults on GN with experience of that response who are, or have been in, what we now correctly identify as abusive relationships. What changed our thinking there? How did we progress from the thought that keeping the woman in line by giving her a quick 'smack' is now unacceptable?

I know children are not adults, treating them as though they are, sitting them down and 'explaining' doesn't work until they are rational enough to understand. There are other ways to set limits but they do take time and patience and need to be learnt, unfortunately no-one needs to learn how to smack.

A smack may solve a behaviour problem temporarily but in a lot of cases it's only like putting a sticking plaster over a splinter, the cause will still fester away and need to be dealt with later.

Another empty headed idiot here. Both DSs were smacked occasionally., as was I when young. The arguments on this thread make the case better than I could have done.

Just a thought, could the current generation be the first in history to be brought up with no smacking?

It will be interesting to see how they all turn out, if so.

By the way, I never smacked my own children..... but never in a million years did I threaten them with the horrible things my parents said to me.

I wasn't smacked as a child but was constantly threatened with being sent away, that "Mummy wouldn't love me any more", and with abandonment - for any minor misdemeanour, eg. not eating all my sprouts.

Guess how much damage that did!! There are worse things than a light smack, but of course it is all relative.

EllanVannin your "corrective slap" is found in many homes today. The children subjected to them are often unable to judge when they will get one. If mum has a hangover it might be because they are being too noisy. it might be because they demanded some food, it might be because they are climbing out of a window. They simply don't know. To imagine that all parents are thinking carefully before they hit a child is ridiculous, but by preaching about how hitting children does no harm you are actively supporting this behaviour.
Teaching that you do not hit those smaller or weaker than you is a much better solution.

I was in school in the 70s and 80s, I remember kids being caned or sent to special schools. There was also a borstal near me.

I only hit my daughter once and she hit me back a lot harder (teenager not little child)

lizzie ?

Can't agree with smacking children, what message does it send ? and sadly some parents just don't know when to stop, where do you draw the line ? children need good guidance but not by physical violence because lets face it IT IS

I know I won't be popular on this subject and I don't have all the answers, all I can say is that children are precious and need protection as they can't speak for themselves.
That's all ladies thank you for reading

I have 2 children. Both entirely different characters. Neither of us ever used any form of physical punishment. Both have grown up to be gentle and empathetic people. My daughter has two boys. Never used physical punishment. Boys are gentle and empathetic. Son has no children.

They are all law abiding and responsible.

Children should NEVER be slapped. There is a good reason why the law prevents physical violence or punishment. Why on earth should this not apply to the most vulnerable in our society?

People who do have lost it in my opinion. The law should apply equally to ALL members of society. The fact that it doesn’t is almost certainly a throwback to when the male in the family “owned” the other members. He could use violence as he saw fit. Adult females eventually found a voice and got that changed. Children have never had the same voice.

It's known as a corrective slap-----------not abuse !!

GNers sometimes live very sheltered lives. Having taught children from homes where the accepted way of dealing with things was a quick slap, a clip round the ear or even a good hiding, administered on an ad hoc basis when the parent felt like it, I can tell you physical punishment doesn't work. What does work are firm boundaries with clear consequences which are consistently applied. Always with a reasonable face-saving route for those children who have reached breaking point. Hitting doesn't work, is still used and still encourages violence amongst some families and should have no place in a civilised society. And whilst you relate all these stories, of how hitting your child once did no harm, and they turned out all right, you are actively supporting (even if you don't mean to) those parents for whom hitting their children is really nothing to do with the child's behaviour, but a way of coping with their own feelings.

A slap is necessary to a defiant child who ignores a situation where danger is an issue. The sheer shock and sting of a hand on the legs/bottom is enough to discourage it from doing it again.

A 2 year old behaves if asked to ?

My 15 month old child was adventurous, independent and fascinated by electric plug sockets. We lived in a small flat where there were storage difficulties eg I had to keep my knitting needles in a roll behind the top sliding glass door of a bookcase. We were well aware of her interest in everything and in the days before we were able to buy socket covers could only keep them out of her reach by moving furniture in front.
One day, we found her, under an easy chair, having upturned the rubbish bin in the kitchen. Here she had found an apple core which she was attempting to push into the socket. With hindsight, maybe I should have put disconnected plugs in to all empty sockets but this was 50 years ago and I didn't.
As recommended by good Dr Spock I removed her from her chosen socket and presented her with other interesting diversions which made her scream.... no books.... no dolls etc
Five minutes later and unable to walk at the time, she squirmed up to the back rest of the sofa and balanced along the edge, reaching over to open the sliding door of the bookcase and remove a knitting needle This she carried carefully down and was seen approaching the same socket obviously with the intention of inserting the needle.
So, what was my solution? I gave her a quick slap across her leg. She screamed at the indignity of it and I attempted an explanation.
Interestingly she never tried it again( at least not when I was around) and grew up to become a chartered engineer.
What alternatives would GNers have suggested?... i do not think any of my children needed more than 1 slap to learn the required lesson and also to extrapolate to other situations.

I totally agree Breeze----especially with your last paragraph.
It's PC gone insane with so many trouble-making accusations/exaggerations.

Mycatisahacker....how I agree ...those endless , endless lectures when my grandchildren are bored into submission of wrongdoing . Thank heaven I was brought up in the 50/60’s, when a quick clout would suffice...succinct and to the point ! My mum had six of us and sitting explaining why you shouldn’t do something wasn’t an option. ,.. she also had three jobs and a sick parent to look after! None of us ‘went bad’ none ended in prison , none even got divorced , the lads didn’t get girls’unto trouble’ and us girls avoided trouble as well...though u don’t think it was through lack of trying!

The best discipline is children knowing that their parents expect something done FIRST time, if asked.

Unfortunately, the majority of parents are too namby pamdy to be able to instil this from a very young age so they resort to smacking, shouting or a long discussion about the incident, which the child usually takes no notice of whatever so ever, as it's usually repeated and they've heard the 'chat' so many times before! ....See mumsnet discussion about the father who couldn't get his child to leave a playdate so left without her and the mother had to send him back!!!

Most parents seem unable to distinguish between fairly mild silly, but normal childish behaviour, and something more serious as I hear them screaming at their kids in the same manner for both!! Choose your battles to fight, I say e.g. always hold hands to cross the road, ignore the silliness as long as it doesn't affect others too much and praise, praise, praise when they choose to do the sensible option.

Urmstongran I agree with your point that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction.

No one wants to see a return to Dickensian whippings but the liberal approach isn't working. Undisciplined children are developing into young adults that know nothing will happen if they do unacceptable things to people. They have not been taught it is wrong and life is a bit uncomfortable if you do bad things.

Teachers are struggling with violent pupils who tell them to do one or worse, attack them. They can do nothing to these kids bar exclude them and if they end up in young offenders they are rewarded with computer games, square meals and drugs on tap.

It's a sorry state of affairs. When I was small I knew I would get a wallop if I did something unacceptable. I grew up just fine and have raised 3 sons who are respectful hard working and kind.

It's rubbish to say that the odd smack here and there or going to your room or suchlike is abuse.

God save us from softie, clueless liberals.

As I saw when I was a social worker the worst behaved children/teenagers were those who had been smacked/hit often (from babyhood)