WTO rules - how many have spent time studying what it really means?

I think it is extremely arrogant to boast about knowing how to vote while stating you don't have all the information. To state how well educated you are but to not care enough to check out the facts. To correct other posters about their spelling/typo or whatever in order to imply one is superior. To decide whether a poster has asked a question or is baiting based purely on personal prejudice. Maybe arrogant is not the right word...............................? Certainly at a different level to many of us

Why some people bother to write posts that are just about them is beyond me. But then I’m not on a different level.

GG54 - 15.04.37

To lift a phrase from the film When Harry Met Sally - "I'll have what she's having". What are you on?

And so .... back to WTO rules.
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Are you going to give us a full explanation of how WTO works?

What did the surgeon say when the hospital lift stopped one storey below the theatres?

I operate at a different level.

????surely it wasn’t that bad?

I was certainly not baiting. The questions were in a daily news letter I get from research.org.uk. Having spelt out the extremely worrying issues yet again, Richard Murphy, who is considerably more knowledgeable than I am, asked these questions. I don't have a clue what the answers could be. All I have read leads me to believe that "no deal" will be life changing - and not in a good way - for everyone I know. What I really did want to know is why, those who want us to leave in this way, believe my fears to be wrong. They must know or they would surely not vote for a worse life and worse deals. But they seem, so far as any answers on here are concerned, to just want to trust those who have lied to us in the past; I just don't understand why they won't give me (selfish, I know) the answers they have and, as they surely must be positive, some piece of mind.

Just one answer perhaps - it's not asking a lot, surely?

The answer is they don’t know and/ or don’t care. So convinced they are that the snake oil salesman spouting the soundbites has the answer to their dreams it doesn’t matter really what the message is as long as they are “right”, they have “won”. The fact that we are all losers, we’ve all been played, is lost on the souls who put their trust in their “betters”. They won’t believe facts or arguments and can always blame someone else when the country continues to go down the pan.

Not that at all. Not wrong or right. Not won or lost. Well, I have never once used those words!

It’s about getting out that’s all as decided by the majority in the referendum. Yes it was a slim majority but even had the difference been by just the one vote only that Churchill said was all that was necessary in a democratic vote - it WAS for out!

And NF is the only man out there who isn’t ambivalent about getting us there. Negotiations after 3 tortuous years haven’t produced anything. Nada.

MP’s (the vast majority of whom do not want to leave) have twisted and turned every way but loose. They have lost the impetuous, the hope and goodwill they were given.

No wonder as a last resort leaving via the Brexit Party on WTO rules is now the only option. No wonder he seems like a saviour but that’s not our fault. He promises to deliever on the result of that referendum, Remainers don’t want it, don’t like it and having felt so close to being able to revoke it are now howling with frustration.

Sorry but that’s my view. I’ve voted and can’t wait to see the result. A bloody nose for both big parties I expect and the Greens, Lib Dem’s, Independents mopping up their divided spoils.

After next Friday the Brexit Party will (if results are as promising as forecast) look to preparing for a GE where, I predict, they will romp home as the disillusioned Leave voters have found a champion for their cause.

Have you?
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But it's NOT a party. No manifesto. No members. He's not a saviour Urmstongran. I know you like him but please don't treat him as a deity. He's an ordinary man with an eye on the main chance.

Leaving the EU means his personal gravy train is pulling into the terminus and he's looking for glory and a salary to boost his EU pension fund. Do you think he'd be doing this if his friend Trump had offered him a job?

It’s people who are hell bent on “leaving” at any cost who are putting blind faith in this saviour. Yes the Brexit party will get the Tory vote, and the remain parties will do well when added together. The people “howling with frustration” are those being whipped into a frenzy by the likes of Tommy Robinson and Anne Widdecombe, unlikely but true, they talk of “betrayal” and “traitors”, despite not caring what damage their vision has already done to this country. The fact that people want something that will ultimately damage everyone doesn’t make it good or the right thing to do, the majority wanted capital punishment retained, and maybe still do, but this was abolished because of the hard work of a few reformers, the same goes for votes for women, the abolition of slavery etc. - Not the majority view at the time.Sometimes people have to stand up against for what they believe, even if the great British public howl in protest and call them traitors.

Hyperbole Ginny42

Deity? No I said he was ‘a champion’ for us, that’s all.

The annoying thing is, he wouldn’t have been necessary if negotiations had been more robust. If there had been pride and ownership of the referendum and less defeatism and capitulation.

Cometh the hour, cometh the man.

‘Leaving at any cost’ crystaltipps was obvious to everyone surely, right from the start, after the referendum! Project Fear was in full force, the electorate were ‘warned’ by no less than Mark Carey at the BoE that we would ‘all be £4,300 poorer’ just for voting Leave. Yet Leave got most votes.

So yes, obviously as a majority we didn’t mind ‘voting to be poorer’ as we believe it to be a short to medium hit and worth it long term.

And although the Brexit Party isn’t a party as such yet, after next Friday it will be!

Hold onto your hats people.
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I don't think you personally have said such things Urmstongran but they certainly have been said. I can see that you feel that one vote was important but does that really mean we shouldn't look closely at what the outcome will be now we all know so much more about it?

I don't really think any human person has ever turned out to be a "saviour" and it worries me that people should think so. What will those who see him like that do if they later realise they should have been asking him the questions I have asked the leavers? I do see that he gives leave voters a sense of 'agency', a sense that they really do have some control over their lives and that he is giving that to them. But what if the lack of agency was never the fault of the EU in the first place or only partly so? What if it turns out that we have lost our sense of agency because our government's no longer have any control over the economy. I have never thought that the EU is blemish free. They have rushed to globalisation - a good thing in many ways - but took no account of the cultural damage it was doing; but neither did our governments because they had given away their right to run out economy to the wealthy and huge businesses. A small part of this is because we have chosen to share some of our decision making with other counties in Europe but the largest part is because here, at home, we have given away our control to "big money". Companies and individuals of wealth now dictate how our economy is run - and that, the bigger part of our loss of agency, will continue, in or out of the EU.

It seems to me as if those who see NF as having all the answers, feel that only the most extreme resolution is possible; a bit like when we've chosen war as the only answer in the past - and it may be. I just really doubt there isn't another way. Just as when we have chosen war we hear the voices that say "agree with us or you are unpatriotic". Just like choosing the extreme of war when we're would hear voices saying "it'll be fine, it'll be over by Christmas". But it never is. A generation loses its future and a country takes decades to recover and I can see exactly that happening. But, just as when we went to war in the past, no one is prepared to tell us why, should that happen, it would have been worth it; why there is no other way and how this particular "war" cures the issues of government at home rather than assuming, wrongly in my opinion, the the challenges all come from the EU. Leavers seem to have reached the point where they would rather be waving our young people off to fight our battles than think again.

GGMk3 Just what I would like to be able to express so eloquently. That says it all for me.

Urmstongran, sorry, I thought you included yourself when you said NF 'seems like a saviour'. Hearing others interviewed in the street sometimes you would think they see him as the only person who can take us out of Europe, as if there can be no other way.

Meanwhile it seems as though the Lib Dems have taken a lot of the Remain vote in London in this week's EU election. It does seem as though voters are viewing the EU election as a mini EU referendum.

Not sure how Labour will retain both their leave and remain voters. What is clear both here on GN and in the country is that there are massive divisions which are widening with NF storming through on a populist vote.

Thank you GGMK3

In The Guardian this morning:

“The middle ground no longer exists over Brexit. It’s all or nothing now”
Andrew Rawnsley

I agree!

GGMK I think it may be me who is being accused of baiting but I really am not. I change my mind if I see I was wrong. I thought TM would be a good PM but am now happy to admit I was wrong.

crystaltipps Sun 19-May-19 06:53:45 I totally agree with all that.

Tell me Urmston do you really believe anyone could have got a better deal? If you were one of the 27 would you give us a better deal? Do you actually believe that TM did the negotiating? Who do you think could have done better when they would have had the same civil servants doing the job?

Project Fear didn't exist it was a soundbite. Unfortunately the remain campaigners were complacent and the people who believed all the lies and accepted that it was OK to cheat were fooled. Unfortunately I think a lot of them are the ones who will feel the effects most strongly. Fine for those of us who can afford to manage whatever happens but so awful for those who can't.

I think we all agree the EU is not perfect but do we really want to be run totally by our current set of MPs? I far prefer to be in a bigger organisation.

Project Fear was NOT a soundbite.

I just gave a good example of its reality.

Project Fear has come to pass in some ways - Mark Carney did manage to jiggle the books to avert some of the worse predictions - but the £ tanks at every fresh setback, jobs have been lost, billions spent unnecessarily, certain aspects of the economy have ground to a halt. Project Fear came from the leave camp as well - the Turks invading, EU army about to march in etc. But lets face it, Brexit isn't about the economy - its about wanting to get rid of Eastern European workers who come here to do the crap jobs that Brits won't do. Never mind, we'll replace them with more from Africa and Asia which will please the Leavers no end.

suzie I hadn't heard that MC 'jiggled the books' please could you give me a link?

It was a soundbite.

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/credit-brexit-vote-financial-crisis-bank-of-england-governor-mark-carney-a7591666.html