Just when we thought it couldn't get any worse...

Grandad1943, the issues you noted regarding restrictions are only restrictions on new tech devices, not pre-owned -- it seems- And I believe some restrictions are being loosened, if they haven't already-

Hwawei is a corrupt company- Their superior phone was built from stolen intellectual property- I also own a Hwawei, but I'm not impressed- However, to be fair it isn't new, and might have been manufactured prior to acquiring the tech they stole-

I love world trade and I love to see things from the far east for sale here. What I don't like is the way Chinese produce seems to have crowded everything else out. Some types of things are simply not available made in this country any more. A little bit of balance please, not just everything the cheapest we can get.

Agree ..

The EU is a strong block

No it's not.

Many EU member states are very poor countries, many economies are in dire straits and the Euro is in danger and has performed poorly.

The EU is propped up (and always has been) financially by the bigger players, like France and Germany - and the UK of course. (To the tune of £39,000,000,000 - billions - lest we forget.)

There are many arguments to suggest the EU is a huge drain on UK prosperity.

Using Trump and China as a scaremongering argument doesn't wash. Remainers with limited vision and little faith in the 5th biggest economy in the world (the UK) are now trying another tactic.

The EU needs the UK.

For our financial contributions - a huge input into the EU budget - and our markets.

Hi
Very well written post and it intelligently raised important and salient points.
Best regards, Rosie

Chinese goods vary hugely in quality. And just looking at the "made in China" label doesn't tell you as much as you may think. China has been especially successful at gaining work in product assembly, and the "made in" label refers to where the product was put together. In fact, many complex products are put together from parts made in a number of different countries. It's dangerous to generalise about the quality of products that are labelled "made in" anywhere. And certainly some Chinese products are of excellent quality.

The issue of "stealing intellectual property" is far more complex than it is made to sound. The USA in its formative years was guilty of a great deal of product piracy, and it is only in comparatively recent times that the USA has recognised copyright in original works. A related problem is that big software companies, usually American, have utilised large numbers of patents to bully small innovators everywhere, often over technology that they did not invent. Actual inventors outside very large companies cannot make effective use of patent protection, and cannot afford to sue big companies who breach their patents. How much of what China does is theft and how much is reverse engineering is hard to determine. And don't forget that much important software is open source.

The EU is a relatively strong bloc.

It is the largest trading bloc in the world, by population. The performance of the euro against the dollar is very similar to the performance of the pound against the dollar. Not surprising since the pound-euro rate is pretty much where it was 10 years ago. There are issues with the eurozone, and they should be resolved.

It is simplistic to talk about propping up the poorer countries. In an economy, it is to the benefit of all to ensure that everyone has purchasing power. Money that is transferred to poorer areas will benefit the overall EU economy, and ultimately benefit the richer countries too. We are cutting off our noses to spite our faces if we think that abandoning our contributions to the EU will really make us better off.

Keep talking about the UK as the fifth largest economy hides more than it reveals (and the projections for this year make the UK the 7th largest). If you exclude the USA and China, the next five countries added together are smaller than the USA. It makes no sense to suppose that we can compete on equal terms with the USA. The three most important trading blocs are the USA, China and the EU. The EU is not a drain on our economy.

counterpoint exactly. How on earth does an annual GDP of $18.8trn constitute a small block.

Compare that with the U.K. GDP of $2.6trn.

The trouble with so much of the Brexit argument is that it knows or thinks it knows the price of everything but in fact knows the value of nothing.

counterpoint, I agree ..

Why is EU Trade Growth So Weak?

The real reason the UK's growth in trade with the rest of the world has been so much better than the EU is that the EU economy has stagnated with largely self-inflicted economic policies designed to prop up the ailing Euro

This has directly created economic disequilibrium, weak demand and low growth.

Other countries have performed economically much more strongly, hence subsequent trading opportunities for the UK have been better.

Ultimately, while the EU introspects and misfires with policy responses designed to prop up the sub-optimal Euro, it is highly unlikely EU growth will exceed global growth.

The Euro, without full federation, for which there is little public will amongst the peoples of Europe, will simply stumble from one crisis to the next, with remaining substantial imbalances.

AND

On any measure be it employment creation, GDP growth, monetary normalisation, political *demos, fiscal transfers andmigration, the UK has materially out-performed the EU over the short and longer term.

*demos: the people of a nation regarded as a political unit.
The above from "How the EU is a drag on UK prosperity" March 2019.

So, do we all look forward to yet MORE UK billions of taxpayers money being used to prop up weak economies throughout Europe if we remain in the EU?

We need to get out now and cut ties. That does not prevent further trade with the EU bloc, because we KNOW they dread us leaving (for financial reasons) and NEED our markets for their goods too.

However, despite the fact that materials from a wide variety of countries are used to produce products assembled in China, it is also a fact that they are imported from there (China) to here (US)

As a result, our markets are flooded with junk-

And it is fair to call junk what it is, just the same as it is to provide good reviews for quality items-

The EU is a relatively strong bloc.

No it's not!

Remainers are refusing to see the truth!

Consider it this way, too- All those barges transferring garbage from one country to be disposed of in another -

123Coco
Quote 'anyone who thinks we won't be in trouble by leaving'.
Ask that of the twenty five thousand British Steel workers who today learn they have lost their jobs, alleged! to Brexit will we wont we. Got to blame Brexit
This is not their first loss .Take a look back to when Tony Blair himself commented in 1997 on job losses at BS who he claimed had been in trouble since 1980.

123Coco
I stand corrected .'won't be damaged by leaving'

Grandad1943. FANTASTIC. WELL SAID. I think the people who want to leave should really be sent to another part of the Country together. We had a v decisive Referendum in the ‘70’s. Leave it at that! Plus Nigel Farage IS FOr PRIVATE HEALTHCARE ready to help his friend Don to rape the NHS. Despite what one poster posted on here. And Trump doesn’t have to be here for ever but his legacy will probably outlive us all on here. All this so some people can have their blue passports! Fgs!!

There is no doubt that the euro, as with other economies has seen a downturn over the past couple of years. However, it is expected that the worst has past now and it will be performing better by the year end.

This is perfectly normal for a modern economy

I thought the 'v decisive Referendum in the ‘70’s' was to be a member of a free trade area, not to become subjects in a European project. Also, the safety of food provided by EU regulation; horsemeat anyone?

@Day6 you're making misleading claims again! It's natural that rapid growth in Asia would outstrip the mature economies of the EU. If you look at GDP per head, which is far more important than raw GDP, the UK has been pretty stagnant for the last fifteen years too. Both the EU and the UK adopted foolish austerity policies, contrary to the view of nearly every respectable economist. That is something else than propping up the Euro.

The EU doesn't need our markets as much as it needs the integrity of the EU. If the two are in conflict, integrity will win out. And that is the view of EU businesses, not just governments.

If we want to engage in trade with the rest of the world, the EU is a positive advantage. We have, via the EU, trade deals with pretty near every country where a deal is feasible. The obvious exceptions are China and the USA, but in both cases it is highly unlikely that the UK on its own can strike a better deal than the EU. The Japanese have already told us that they expect to give us a worse deal than their agreement with the EU. How would it be otherwise, when the EU is a market of 500 people?

Sorry, 500 million peope!

On the subject of our food being protected by staying in the EU. I remember the horse meat scandal from a few years ago. I think I'm correct in saying that it was an east european country that was responsible for that

Grandad1943. Thank you. Excellent and helpful. Demonstrates the vulnerability we expose ourselves to by leaving.

I am sure Huawei make superb phones. I cannot feel secure about their 5G system being implemented in Britain. Indeed I am not even happy about Smart Metres and the close proximity in which we live to microwaves.

I agree with Book. This is A very good topic and thread. Extremely relevant and something I would like to hear people talk about. I really appreciate it when people take the trouble to explain things so that I learn a lot. rosecarmel has opened my mind greatly and I thank her among many others.

I am terrified about the future. Horrified for my grandchildren.

I can't see what the future will hold with China owning the US debt, Trump tweeting "if Iran wants to fight, that will be the official end of Iran”.

We in the UK have an issue of smaller proportions in that we are collaborating with China and France to build Hinkley C. A nuclear power plant that should never have been agreed in the first place and keeps doubling the cost and increasing the length of time before it will be finished.
China is increasing its investment in nuclear power and in the Guardian last July: "If China General Nuclear Power (GNP) – the main player in China’s nuclear industry – buys a 49% stake in the UK’s existing nuclear plants, as it was recently reported to be considering, that would mark a significant expansion of China’s role in the UK nuclear sector."

Regarding Mr N Farage and what he thinks of us go to:

twitter.com/OwenSmith_MP/status/1129145927804047360

Basically it shows you Farage saying say he would feel more “comfortable” about a system where "we are going to have to move to an insurance-based system of healthcare."
Farage is a very dangerous man with pernicious far-right beliefs. Under his beliefs, it won't be long before they would bring back something like the old Work-Houses.

The Brexit Party are not fit to call themselves a Political Party. They have no policies or knowledge of issues on which MEPs have to make crucial decisions. They do not know about what to do that is best for Britain. They only have one issue and are so ignorant that they do not see that the job involves taking care of us in every aspect while they are in the EU. They simply do not have the expertise to maintain the best for Britain in all issues.

They do not know about what to do that is best for Britain

Ha. That made me laugh!

The same applies to the Labour and Conservative Parties then, given they are both split over the EU.

Tell me - WHO does know what is best for Britain, when even economists cannot agree and the governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, has made many, many financial predictions since 2016, and they have all been WRONG!?

We have Remainer and Leave MPs. Which group is right, which is wrong? They'll have reasons for their answers.

The Brexit Party is standing up for an ideal - for democracy and for something our MPs said they'd do - respect and honour the result of the referendum.

The protest is what it's all about, and quite frankly, the Brexit Party cannot be any worse than the clowns at war in Westminster who are supposedly taking us down the right path.

You do know we are not having a GE, don't you? The Brexit Party is fighting the EU elections right now - on one issue - to hopefully be a voice in Brussels and Strasbourg for the millions of people who have no faith in the EU or our part within it.

I believe a vote for The Brexit Party is a vote for democracy, and eventually, a long overdue vote for political change in Westminster.

day6
95% of economists DO agree and that is probably an understatement.

Brexit Party and Democracy are NOT natural bedfellows. It isn’t a political party it is a company. So democracy cannot sit well with it.