The Labour Party

How can the opposition be absolved of all responsibility for the horrors of austerity ? I don't blame them for austerity of course not. I do blame them for their ineffective opposition to the worst conservative government I've experienced in my life time.

Jura2 in regard to post @ 19:14 today, Corbyn has unreservedly supported the rank and file/activists Brexit policy brought about by last Septembers Delegate Conference.

Despite much criticism that policy of "bringing about a General Election as a first priority" it has proven to be a correct decision as even within the Tory Party it is being conceded that such an election may be the only way to solve this Brexit crisis.

Therefore, many Labour MPs who felt that those low born "pamphlet pushers" had no right to dictate policy that they as their betters should be deciding, are now being made to eat their words.

Corbyn in support of that policy and those delegates has been proven right in the view now of very many within the broader Labour movement.

For the last time- even Conference decisions have to adapt to extreme emergency situations. We are being thrown into a NoDeal by ERG and Johnson- and will have left the EU.

So, is this what YOU want? Is this what Corbyn wants?
Is that still what the Labout Membership wants?

The Labour Party membership have never wanted this. The majority of them wants us to Remain in the EU. It is time that Corbyn took note of that.

Iam64 Quote [How can the opposition be absolved of all responsibility for the horrors of austerity ? I don't blame them for austerity of course not. I do blame them for their ineffective opposition to the worst conservative government I've experienced in my life time.] End Quote.

Iam64, it has been pointed out any number of times in this thread that the Tory Party are the party of Government at this point in time.

With the Taxpayer purchased support of the UDP the Conservative Party have commanded a majority in the House of Commons in all finance bills that have been placed before it.

So, Iam64 would you please inform me how Corbyn and the Labour Party could have prevented those bills and the austerity brought about by them passing into law?

It really is extraordinary how people deny a defeat which was the worst in modern history is effective opposition and continue to post pure speculation without a single idea indicating what they imagine good opposition to be.
Iam64 Corbyn voted against austerity. Some Labour MPs who have clashed with Corbyn didn't. Not his fault! www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/these-are-the-184-labour-mps-who-didn-t-vote-against-the-tories-welfare-bill-10404831.html

Grandad1943 Mon 05-Aug-19 17:17:36

'It was not Corbyn that called the divisive referendum.'
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He did nothing to stop it did he?

Corbyn voted for a Referendum! He had wanted a refendum on the EU for years and voted against his own government/party as we all know several times over many years.

Parliament voted by 544 to 53 in' favour ' to progress the EU Referendum Bill to hold a Referendum. Conservatives and Labour rejected an SNP Ammendment to reject the Bill.
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' It was not Corbyn that triggered article fifty without even looking at what Britain had signed up to by way of its membership of the EU.'

Hells Bells. Corbyn called for Article 50 to be triggered straight away!

It was Corbyn who ' HYPOCRITICALLY ' said after the Referendum result in June 2016:-

" The British people have made their decision. We must respect that result and Article 50 has to be invoked now so that we negotiate an exit from European Union.

“Obviously there has to be strategy but the whole point of the referendum was that the public would be asked their opinion. They’ve given their opinion. It is up for parliament to now act on that opinion."

What changed his mind!
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" It was not Corbyn who demanded of the EU negotiators terms that could not be granted purely on the basis of the treaties that Britain played a leading part in formulating."

We don't have a bladdy clue what Corbyn would have done because he was not in any position to negotiate
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" It was not Corbyn that did not even think on the situation of Britain leaving the EU would bring about in Northern Ireland. "

Well I refer back to what he said above and he didn't mention Northern Ireland. He actually agrees with the need for the Northern Ireland Back Stop and if he was so concerned about it he should have voted for the UK / EU Withdrawal Agreement after Theresa May gave in to his Red Lines. It might have passed eventually but it never went back to Parliament because Corbyn ' DECLARED' Labour would still not vote for the UK/EU Withdrawal Agreement, HE PLAYED POLITICS.
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"It was not Corbyn that did not envisage the situation that Britain leaving the EU could create at the channel ports."

There wouldn't be trouble at channel ports had Corbyn voted for the UK/EU Withdrawal Bill probably.
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" It is not Corbyn that is now spending six billion pounds on preparing Britain Britain for a "no-deal" Brexit that was never mentioned even as a possibility by leavers during the referendum campaign."

That is a repeated mantra and a silly argument that holds no weight whatsoever but used time and time again.

Maybe pro Leavers did not mention what would happen if there was No Deal or supplied / put a rose tinted view on it.
Are you saying you never heard ANYBODY campaigning for Remain mention what might/could happen if there was No Deal?

I know I certainly did and the Remain Campaign was pretty crappy if there voice only reached a few people. Of course that was not the case and some people/media were rentless as to warning what could happen if there was No Deal.
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"It was not Corbyn who stated on the day that article fifty was signed that "these will be the easiest negotiation ever concluded"

No, it was a Leave campaign comment but it was up to intelligent people to listen to ' both' sides of the argument and Corbyn stated very little about Article 50 accept he thought it should be triggered straight away, even Theresa May gave it more length of thought as to when to trigger Article 50
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"The above and much more has been stated and carried out by this useless Tory government under the direction of its neo-fascist ERG members."

The ERG voted the same as Labour and voted against the UK/EU Withdrawal Agreement, not all of them, even Boris Johnson voted for the UK/EU Withdrawal Agreement eventually. The ERG are ' the few not the many' and yet Parliament voted as they did. They might have had different reasons but the continuous ploy to blame the ERG for not voting for the UK/EU Withdrawal Agreement and excuse other parties who did the same is PLAYING POLITICS without even logic being applied.

And that is the truth of the situation.

The fact that 184 labour MP’s didn’t vote with Corbyn must surely cause those who are not Corbyn devotees to question why ?

Jura2, Varian, the Brexit policy decision taken by those that attended the Delegate Conference was correct and that Annual Conference is the premier policy-making body within the whole Labour movement.

No concerted number motions have been placed before the conference standing orders committee or the Labour Party National Executive Committee requesting a reconvened conference to review the Brexit Policy.

Therefore, it would seem to be clear that those elected grassroots representatives still support the decision made at that conference, and that's democracy in action.

Unusual in Britain today when so many in politics seem to run around like headless chicken changing their minds and policy at every whim.

Tough for some who view themselves as the betters of those who made those polices, is it not.

Corbyn said ‘ we must respect that result and article 50 has to be invoked now’, the day after the results of the referendum, didn’t perch on his fence that day didn’t he ?

What ever further is stated on this thread tonight, the battery on my phone is now gone flat, and I have been in Europe on business for the last five days.

So, I am off to take Carol my dear wife out for a nice meal and a few drinks and then looking forward to a day off tomorrow.

So, see you then if I am fit enough. ?

Grandad
I hope you enjoyed your meal.

Your post of 19.06 is a repeat of a repeat of a repeat form of whatabouttery and on a thread discussing Labour I will discuss Labour.

I do answer your points re the Conservatives when there is a question asked, not merely statements of what you think of the Tories.

However I have to say the majority of personal posts I usually get from you these days repeatedly raise the bladdy Conservative Party as though you don't have anything to say to discuss/debate/contradict my points on Labour.

As for :
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"POG's in regard to your post @ 18:31 today, you seem to view Momentum as a party within the Labour Party even though they have all been democratically elected to the positions they hold."
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I do not view Momentum as a Party within a Party ' I believe' it is a Party within a Party. That has been my position for years and proven correct.

The fact Momentum has been democratically elected to the so many positions at the helm of Labour confirms it.

Momentum is now the power base over the Labour Party and it is also ' my belief ' Momentum / Unions will be even more powerful at the next Genel Election as Constituencies that have vacancies (resignations/deselection) will be filled by only Momentum/Union Candidates as is happening now.

Phew POGS you did it again. I don't need to exhaust myself attempting to respond to the hectoring from Grandad who absolves Corbyn and Momentum from any responsibility for the mess we are in.
I will repeat myself though, if we'd had an effective opposition, surely we would now have a Labour government. Under Corbyn Labour lost the last election, lost the EU elections, lost the local elections and recently lost a by election. Not looking great is it.

So an effective opposition should be the government, but they aren't. Can I remind you Iam64 that the projected outcome of the last GE was a huge majority for the Conservatives. That didn't happen and they were only able to form a government by bribing the DUP. So Corbyn brought about a change in the predicted outcome. This government has a majority of 1 it will not survive much longer.

The government is the government not the opposition ,
the official opposition is there to oppose the government

Anie I know that and have asked consistently what an effective opposition should do. The only reply seems to be from Iam64 that they should be the government. (I know it's illogical, but what can you do?)

How about be effective?

BUt what is 'effective' Annie if not inflicting the biggest defeat in modern history on a government?

It was the turmoil over Brexit not an effective opposition, an effective opposition would have won not come second

Ah so now we are back to the opposition should be the government! Haven't we been here before?

For all the "smoke and mirrors" that ardent Tory supporters attempt to put up in this thread, one very salient point cannot be disputed.

On May the seventh two thousand and fifteen David Cameron was called to Buckingham Palace and requested by our monarch as the leader of the largest party in the House of Commons to form a new government for the United Kingdom. That request David Cameron accepted, and since the above date, the Conservative party along with the taxpayer-funded support of the Northern Ireland Democratic Unionist Party have formed the parliamentary government of this nation.

The Tory Party and the DUP have held a working majority in the House of Commons, and in the use of that majority have brought Britain to largest political and constitutional crisis that this nation has faced for more than seventy-five years.

No other body in parliament can be held responsible for the above, for the Labour Party are the party of opposition, and against that Tory/ERG/DUP majority have been able to do nothing to offset the havoc the foregoing grouping has wreaked on this country.

Evidence to the above can be witnessed in that at last Septembers Labour Movement Delegate Conference the lay members attending determined that only a General Election would have any chance of resolving the Brexit crisis, and that was brought into policy.

Jeremy Corbyn has supported that lay member created policy throughout the past year, but this shambles of a United Kingdom government would never accept that argument even as the crisis deepened by the week and Tory Party leaders came and went.

However, even within Tory circles, the General Election policy created by those lay conference delegates is now being accepted as possibly the only way to resolve the Brexit crisis. Of course, the hard right in the Conservative party now headed by Boris Johnson still look to extream measures to gain their self-interests in Britain leaving Europe with such planned measures as the proroguing of Parliament.

Should the above be brought forward it may be that all outside the Tory/ERG/DUP grouping will be able to do nothing should the above decide in some way that they will unite and act as the Governing body in the proroguing of Parliament.

As stated, the Labour Party are the party of opposition, and have not, or cannot stop any action or bill passing through parliament in the face of the above majority.

Therefore the division and crisis that this nation now faces can only be placed in complete total on those that have formed the government and governing party of this country since May of two thousand and fifteen, and no amount of smoke and mirrors deflection by Tory supporting members of this forum or elsewhere can change that fact.

Corbyn spoke out yesterday, he wants an enquiry into the
Whaley Bridge dam, we can now expect

‘I feel your pain’

Yes indeed Grandad. The Conservatives have wrecked public services. Made life much harder for ordinary folk, nigh on impossible for those with mental, physical health problems etc etc
We need a Labour government. There are Corbyn supporters who insist he is the leader to win. Grandad says if Labour lose the next election, nothing should change. I don’t understand how anyone can be complacent

I don't understand either Iam64.

There must be a reason that we have had a Conservative-led government, as Grandad so kindly pointed out, and, if they are useless and failing then could it be that Labour are even more useless and failing even more miserably to inspire people to vote for them?

Perhaps all those people who have posted about how good the Conservatives are at managing things, and especially money, could admit that what has actually happened is that a useless bunch of idiots, they put in power, have effectively imposed levels of poverty unseen since Victorian days, whilst managing to move their own assets to safety. They might then admit that actually they were wrong and start believing that things can only be remedied by a Labour government.