The Labour Party

trisher

"Perhaps all those people who have posted about how good the Conservatives are at managing things, and especially money,"
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Can you point me to ' those people' or a post on this thread that has made that reference.

I am not saying you are incorrect but I can't find where you have seen this.

Well Said trisher

The conservatives like to make out and fool people that they are the party good at managing the economy when clearly they are not.

They are worse than useless.

Oh POGS come on! It has been a perpetual theme in lots of threads- Labour can't manage money only the Conservatives can save us.. surely you aren't trying to say it has never been said are you?

Not on this thread

Iam64, Callistemon, in regard to your earlier posts in this thread, I do not feel I and many others are being complacent with reference to the present status of the Labour Party.

Indeed, I would again agree with others that Jeremy Corbyn is certainly no great Parliamentary speaker or group control expert. However, Corbyn has through his leadership completely reformed the organising structure throughout not just the Labour Party, but also throughout the whole broader Labour movement in the country to create one Labour identity.

The above will undoubtedly be Corbyns legacy to the movement and in that is to be found the reasons why so many hold total allegiance to Corbyn through "thick and thin." In short, the Labour grassroots activists both party members and affiliate members now have a full say in policymaking and the day to day running of the party and wider movement, and that they greatly appreciate.

Of course, the above is publicised little outside the activities of the party, and does not win the allegiance of very many left-leaning members of the electorate which is so often demonstrated on social media sites.

However, Jeremy Corbyn has stated he will step down as leader as soon as the Brexit crisis shows any sign of being resolved, (but that could be some way off). There is also within the party and broader Labour movement a resolve I feel to "bring to book" those in the Parliamentary Party that have never accepted the new more democratic organising structure, and in that the election of Jeremy Corbyn as leader.

The above may see many constituency Party deselections of sitting Labour Party MPs that will obviously attract much publicity in Britains right-wing owned press. However, and as stated, many believe the above has to be carried out whatever the cost so that the continuous "wrecking tactics" maintained by some Labour MPs in the Parliamentary Party over the past three years will never be witnessed again. Therefore, I cannot see Jeremy Corbyn giving up the leadership of the party until that action by the constituency parties (where required) is completed.

The above (hopefully) will come about prior to any General Election being called enabling all Labour Parliamentary candidates to support both policies and leader in that election.

So, I would agree like many that a new Party Leader with perhaps more charisma will be required in the face of Corbyn stepping down. That stated, I certainly do not feel that there will be any change of policies or organisational structure in the Labour Party or broader movement, and whoever is elected to replace Corbyn will be much in his image.

Grandad

"For all the "smoke and mirrors" that ardent Tory supporters attempt to put up in this thread, one very salient point cannot be disputed."
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Keep your head in the sand and your hands over your ears. It is NOT necessarily ardent Tory supporters, whom ever they might be?, who challenge your opinion of Corbyns Leadership or the state the Labour Party is in.
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" The Tory Party and the DUP have held a working majority in the House of Commons, and in the use of that majority have brought Britain to largest political and constitutional crisis that this nation has faced for more than seventy-five years.

No other body in parliament can be held responsible for the above, for the Labour Party are the party of opposition, and against that Tory/ERG/DUP majority have been able to do nothing to offset the havoc the foregoing grouping has wreaked on this country."
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That is pure Bull.!

We could also be in a Constitutional Crisis because so many MP's could not/will not accept the Referendum Result, have been doing everything they can to get a General Election and playing politics.

The Tory Party with a Supply and Confidence agreement with the DUP has/had a slim majority but that slim majority has proven to be of no value because Parliamentary MP's have overriden the Government at practically every vote. Might I add MP's who :-

A) Stood on their Party Manifesto and yet some Tory and Labour MP's have been noted to go against their Manifestos, to the point the public /voter will probably NEVER believe a word in them again. What is the point of them?

B) Voted by a majority to hold a Referendum, they could have voted Cameron down!!!!!

C) MP's have forgotten their constituency voters and changed political alliegence, now sit as Independents but hypocritics that they are do not give their constituents the right of choosing if they still want them as their MP. They call for a 2nd Referendum/Peoples Vote but bugger that when it is their job on the line, their constituents who voted for their Manifesto/Party can be pushed to one side.

D) Repeatedly stated they accepted the result of the democratic vote over our membership of the EU which returned a Leave vote but have done everything in their power to do otherwise and overturned time and time again the 'majority' the government holds.
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"As stated, the Labour Party are the party of opposition, and have not, or cannot stop any action or bill passing through parliament in the face of the above majority."

Of course if there is a majority then any 'action or bill' passes.
That ' principle' has ways been how a democratic vote is decided, until the EU Refendum result when a majority means sod all and another reason why Joe Public has lost faith in Democracy and Parliamenarians, it is an own goal.

It still comes down to the fact a government having a majority is not in control if the Opposition and it's own party MP's rebel as we have witnessed on such a scale as they have over overturning the EU Refendum Result.
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Now you and others will come back with I am a Tory /Leave voter as usual but that is a fallacy of your own making.

I did vote Tory at the last elections but I voted Labour under Blair. I voted to Remain albeit my pen hovered before putting my cross.

trisher and grandad- many of us are not pro Tories, or anti Corbyn. Many of us know the Tories are responsible for this debacle, the banking crisis and austerity, and so much more.

Many of us are NOT anti-Corbyn - but despair at his sitting on fences and lack of effective opposition. Yes, Labour do not have the numbers- but could be clear about Brexit and seek alliances to defeat it, before it is too late. We despair of his policy which is to stick to Conference even in such a crisis - and for the country to crash out with No Deal - and then come like a Knight in shining armour and come and 'save us' -
many of us believe it will be too late and the cost of the country massive. And many of us believe that even then - he will not win a GE and a change of Leadership is required right now.

Nicola Sturgeon in the Guardian today:

'I think the abdication of leadership on the part of Jeremy Corbyn right now will be the stuff of history books '

agreed.

I am anti Tory and anti Corbyn .

trisher

Oh POGS come on! It has been a perpetual theme in lots of threads- Labour can't manage money only the Conservatives can save us.. surely you aren't trying to say it has never been said are you?
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So your post has no relevance to this thread!

I am sure it has been said on other treads but it had no relevance in debating with posters on here you tried to deflect from the running of this thread by using tactics to try and prove a point that wasn't even being asked or questioned.

You are not engaging in the thread by merely showing your dislike of the Tory Party or those whom you cannot accept hold a different opinion.

You are wasting the opportunity to hit back by posting facts/constructive criticism /debating the issues by simply arguing the toss with nothing substantial, nothing to add of consequence.

However, Corbyn has through his leadership completely reformed the organising structure throughout not just the Labour Party, but also throughout the whole broader Labour movement in the country to create one Labour identity.

Really?
That astonishes me. I presume his leadership is a euphemism for his ability to be controlled by others. As for one Labour identity - presumably achieved by de-selection or threats to those who may dissent in the slightest.

I wonder how many good Labour MPs have refrained from voicing their fears for the sake of their constituents whom they represent and for hopes for the future of the party, and indeed the country, post-Corbyn and, hopefully, post-Momentum?

I suppose then the question is jura2 do you vote for a party or a leader? As has been stated many times on different threads we do not have a presidential system in the UK and leaders come and go. So the policies of the party should matter more. I know some liked Blair but I never did. What stopped me voting Labour was the war policy and the right wing measures brought in which meant the Liberals were further left than Labour. I believe in left wing policies, who is responsible for enacting them I really don't care.

Many of us know the Tories are responsible for this debacle, the banking crisis
I don't think the Tories were responsible for the banking crisis.

and then come like a Knight in shining armour and come and 'save us' I have a vision of him coming pedalling along on his trusty bicycle, bicycle clips shining in the sunshine, red flag hoisted to save us all.

jura I don't think he is capable of saving his party, the country, or even himself in fact.

trisher when was the last successful far left labour government?

'Many of us know the Tories are responsible for this debacle, the banking crisis
I don't think the Tories were responsible for the banking crisis.'

oh YES, they were, for sure, can't believe some people still can't see that. But for another thread, perhaps.

Trisher - I can see what you are saying. But the crisis is very serious at the moment- leaders do come and go - but once we are out of the EU- it will be too late. Surely? How is Labour going to be able to implement all the social and pro NHS policies, and address environmental issues- once the country has gone down the pan and Sterling tanked ever further?

At least Blair and Brown understood that you need a prosperous country, prosperous businesses and services, to provide decent employment and the tax revenue necessary to implement a decent social, etc, policy. They were betrayed by Tories who refused to pay fair taxes and took the money out of the country. That was NOT Brown's fault - he actually, and perhaps naïvely, believed businesses would be very successsful AND pay fair taxes. They did not...

I thought it started in America after the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act.

But - another thread perhaps.

And like many, I feel totally politically homeless.

Why do you refer to a Far Left government Annie? I have said I believe in socialist policies. Labour under all leaders had until the Iraq war socialist policies.
In fact the Conservatives have never had an overall majority although they have introduced austerity and right wing policies. They were assisted in this by the Liberals, the DUP and some Labour MPs.
jura2 the argument we can't afford it has been used continuously to restrict measures which help the poorest. The answer is of course, it can always be afforded. It is the will to do it that fluctuates.

trisher centre left has socialist policies. No use pretending socialist policies are only from the far left.

Who has been the most successful labour leader ?

Trisher- the more prosperous the economy, the mosre money we have to spend on services for all, and particularly the weakest in society. I too believe in socialist policies - but I am also a realist. Those who will be worst affected by Brexit- are the weakest, the most vulnerable (and mostly those who were hoodwinked into voting for it). Those who will or already have lost their jobs, in the most vulnerable parts of the UK. And when factories close, people become dependent on benefits instead of contributing. What we must ensure, is that prosperous businesses do pay fair taxes and do not stash it all out of the country. And we all now know, surely- that this is what Brexit was all about from the start, for ERG and Johnson- to stop the new EU Directive on Tax Havens and Tax Evasion- and to cut 'red tape' eg workers' rights, environmental and safety measures, allow poor husbandry and bio safety, etc, etc.
Cutting 'red tape' sounds good- until you begin to think and realise 'red tape' rules and Laws, are there to protect us all from those who don't care and are prepared to use and abuse workers, animals, the earth...

trisher

" I suppose then the question is jura2 do you vote for a party or a leader? As has been stated many times on different threads we do not have a presidential system in the UK and leaders come and go. So the policies of the party should matter more."
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If the policies of the Party matter more to voters, I am not arguing that point, then why having produced Manifestos the MP's of ANY political Party who stood on their Manifesto be allowed to simply leave the party and sit as an Independent because they never agreed with it. Those MP's ' broke the contract' with their constituents to stand on that parties terms.

Voters have said they ' returned' / joined Labour because of Corbyn. So they voted for the Leader and what he would bring back in their eyes to Labour. The Labour Party was dead to them before Corbyn and if the Leader ever went back to one holding a more centrist position no doubt they would revert back to not voting for ' the party' again.

At the end of the day people vote for many reasons, some vote for the party, some vote for the Leader.

Gran Quote [ The conservatives like to make out and fool people that they are the party good at managing the economy when clearly they are not.
They are worse than useless.]

Very well stated Gran. Boris (The Buffoon) Johnson certainly divulged his competence in managing the economy when in regard to Brexit he stared that Business could "f*ck off".

Great way to ensure a strong and successful Britain.

Corbyn is not a leader, he is a nodding dog for momentum and UNITE.

Anniebach Quote [ Who has been the most successful labour leader?]

Clement Attlee who through his leadership of the 1945 post-war Labour government brought us all the National Health Service and Welfare State that the vast majority of the population of Britain still use and have the benefits of even until today.