Let’s stop pretending the referendum was illegal eh?

One industry that will expand if we leave will be law companies as industry pays the cost learning to understand how leaving affects them and how they can trade with our biggest market without the frictionless trade we have been used to.

Most EU regulations don't require new UK laws. They can be implemented in the UK without new legislation, for example by simply changing administrative rules. Where we are selling the good these cover we will still have to adopt them.

We also adopt some EU regulations that simply codify existing UK law at a European level. In other words, we would have that law anyway and we still will.

Those using this argument have also often calculated in what are known as "non-legislative EU regulations", which concern matters so small or routine that many people wouldn't really recognise them as law. Once again these regulations will still exist.

If we continue to trade with the EU all these would have to still be dealt with so I am wondering just what "We will revert to our own judicial system" means to you?

If we want to sell to the EU- we will have to abide by their rules on bio safety, welfare, chemical safety, etc, etc, etc - or they just won't buy. We can choose our standards of course- but they can just choose to NOT buy.

We can choose zero tariffs- but that means we will HAVE TO accept zero tariffs on goods coming in- like meat from Argentina, or cars from Japan, etc, etc. We CANNOT pick and mix tariffs as we please under WTO rules. WTO is run by bureaucrats in Geneva- any tariffs have to be agreed with 164 (from top of head) of countries.

On the other hand, China, the USA and other countries, will insist on we adopting their very low, unsafe, in fact, dangerous - standards, in exchange for a Deal (as well as increased Visas, etc) - that is all very simple.

People who voted to leave and intransigently maintain they'd do so again can sound as if it's all a game to them. But it's really a decision that deserves sober thought.

We will hopefully retake our fishing grounds
This is unlikely, as fishing rights go back hundreds of years, and were NOT first introduced with the Common Fisheries Policy. We need to land our fish in other ports, as other country's vessels need to land in our ports.

The reality of a hard Brexit wouldn't be as straightforward as many of the ex-fishing families might like to believe. They would still face fishing quotas, which would be negotiated by the same politicians they have accused of letting them down. They'd still have to trade with our European neighbours as they are a massive market for our fishing industry. And they'd almost certainly still have to share waters with boats from other countries, who'd have the right to fish there too.

The vote came just as the industry was enjoying increasing profits. This is a report telling us how they were doing in 2017 - it's the latest I can find.
www.gov.uk/government/news/fishing-industry-in-2017-statistics-published

The tide seems to have finally turned for this industry while Brexit and certainly a hard Brexit offers few guarantees.

I'm waiting for your list of benefits for staying in !!

How many times are we expected to repeat, again and again... the list is endless.

They are the ones you can see every day gangy5. It is/was the status quo. Trying to blame someone or something that isn't the cause of your problems gives very short-lived comfort. What you blame the EU for is either not true or is caused by our government. The challenges we face are internal ones. If you didn't like what was happening change the government - they still govern us; the EU doesn't and never has.

I like the house I live in. I do not have to list the reasons: you could see them. If you decided, that against my personal judgement I must move to a house that I haven't seen and the reports I can get of it are all negative - why would I want to do that? Why should I agree with you wrecking our lives? Your list above is like old fashioned estate agent talk. It's lies and inflated promises. It is you that is changing what we have not me. It is you that has to justify that and vote by more the 4% in a lying, unlawful referendum to make me do what you want to do.

You obviously aren't reading the replies I put on but coming out of the EU:

1. We will be free to make our own trade deals if and where we can and almost certainly our diminished power will mean they are inferior.

2. We have never stopped using our own judicial system.

3. This is unlikely, as fishing rights go back hundreds of years, and were NOT first introduced with the Common Fisheries Policy. We need to land our fish in other ports, as other country's vessels need to land in our ports.

4. Farming will be returned to our jurisdiction. That doesn't make any sense. It is already within our jurisdiction.

5. The exchequer already decided. It decided we should have a long term agreement with the EU. If we come out we will want another long term agreement with the EU as they are our largest market. If we make agreements with other large economies they will also dictate some of the terms.

And in 10 years time, if we are all still around you will be moaning about what we have then.

The answer is - it's "easiest to accept the status quo"

That may be your answer gangy5 but it isn't mine. Things may need to be changed in the "status quo" but, unlike leave voters, I don't destroy good things that need changes; I work on getting the changes made.

I really can hear the whining leavers complaining when the complete upheaval they have forced on us don't come to fruition in the way they convinced themselves they would -because that is the sort of people they are. Not one of your points is true so now why do you want to leave?

Good job the British didn't take the "easy" route and keep the "status quo" in 1939, eh? I wish more of today's generation had as much backbone and belief in themselves and our country that our parent's generation had.

Well said Opal
and before departing this post I would just like to reiterate a comment made earlier on a Brexit post -- that being ' note how hostile the remainers are with their comments, whereas the leavers mange to remain relatively polite'

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I am astonished by the irony in your post, Thursday 00.57, Dinahmo and am surprised that you cannot see that yourself!

You say life has been good for you, quoting a house purchase for £18,000 in 1979 which you renovated, sold and which is now worth £1.5 million.

You then quote the fact of homelessness which you say has happened during the last ten years.
I will include the fact that many young people cannot get on the housing ladder, although they are not technically homeless.
Can you not see the link between these two?

What does being the EU have to do with this? People were encouraged to buy up suitable housing as an alternative 'pension pot' in the early 2000's and that is now coming home to roost.
You say that you did well and attribute this to our EU membership, but that the last 10 years has been disastrous for others - when we have still been in the EU.

I am confused.

- the joy, the smiles, the music, the humour, the humanity will all return on 31st October!
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Good job the British didn't take the "easy" route and keep the "status quo" in 1939, eh? I wish more of today's generation had as much backbone and belief in themselves and our country that our parent's generation had. (Sat 29-Jun-19 07:21:57)

So what was your reason for "doing your bit" in the war Opal? For many, it was to support our friends and allies not to kick them in the teeth. For others, it was because, as a part of Europe we might be next. My mother voted in the referendum to stay in. She was 19 in 1939 and joined up as soon as she was 21 and didn't need her parent's permission. My father was in the RAF - he had been since he was 16 and was 21 when the war started. I know he would never have voted his "friends" in Europe out. He was all in favour of us joining and the search for peace. We have also seen the last veterans of that war recently telling us what they feel.

It is the next generation, not all but some who think they know best, the ones who are petty enough to feel they missed out who are always telling us what they "think" it was all about. Cowards all is what I would call them for daring to try and borrow the courage of those who were actually involved.

but that the last 10 years has been disastrous for others - when we have still been in the EU.

Callistemon, the last 10 years have been disastrous for many because of domestic policy, the tory 'austerity' policy which has cut public spending because of their adherence to the discredited 'national budgets are like household budgets' economic theory (a theory not supported by most economists, as I have pointed out again and again on this forum). All it has done is reduce the amount of money circulating in the 'real' economy. That's the one we all live in, not the 'money markets' which are divorced from reality and exist only to make rich people richer by playing the markets, not by making any contribution to jobs and investment in the 'real world'.

As for castigating Dinnahmo, I think you missed the bit where she said that they haven't benefited from the increased value of the house they renovated. My mother sold our childhood home in the 70s for about £9,000. It went on the market a few years ago for over £200,000. Nothing to do with us at all....

I haven't time to say more but just to emphasise that the EU is in no way to blame for people's plight. It is completely the doing of the tories in government.

I think you are very confused indeed.

- the joy, the smiles, the music, the humour, the humanity will all return on 31st October!
?

If we leave Urmstongran (Sat 29-Jun-19 10:04:08), I for one will never forgive the small proportion of this country that has inflicted this on us and I don't believe I will be the only one. But I do think it will be those that voted to remain who will get on and make the best of what is done to us while those who needed someone or something to blame - immigration and the EU for starters - will just find something else and moan about that. But be warned - this small part of the electorate will never be allowed to treat the whole country like this again.

Small proportion of this country? Small part of the electorate? You're joking right? More than 50% voted leave GG, which is why we're leaving. It's called democracy.

And yet another example Jura2 of a remainer insinuating that leavers are all fascists, Nazis, swastika-bearing idiots. Please do not confuse the two, I am none of the above. I do not support extremism of any kind, in any form, right or left wing. I simply believe that the UK will be better off outside the EU, for economic reasons that I have previously stated. Your post says a lot more about you, than you will ever say about me.

Good post Opal??

It wasn't 50% of the electorate though was it. It was 52/48% of the people that voted in the referendum. Very, very close.

Yes, close, but the majority of all votes wins nevertheless. There have been "close" general elections in the past, but those who lose don't ask for another election because they didn't get the result they wanted. And the turnout for the referendum was far greater than any general election, I believe, but happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. As I said, that's democracy.

Thanks lemon

I think finally, the writing’s on the wall.
We’re leaving.
?

All the many hours of debates to do with the EU referendum are on YouTUbe - every single factor was fully debated with Border control as number 1 and self-governance (sovereignty) of courts etc number 2 and all salient factors covered in depth. Phones-ins - live audience etc etc. All the prominent people were in the debates. So is it the fact that the REMAINERS - REMOANERS actullt did not understand what they were doing and why they voted??? THey are bas losers and show contempt for democracy.

Just a contempt for the contemptible, Johno. This has all been a long way from legal, verifiable democracy.

Sour grapes