Let’s stop pretending the referendum was illegal eh?

I think you are very confused indeed.
Not me!!

Dinahmo was attributing her extreme good fortune to the EU. She didn't say when she sold her house - she could indeed have made an enormous unearned profit from it. It was the last Labour administration which encouraged people to put their pension savings into property as 'buy to let' - look where that has led us.

Dinahmo's post was confused, she did not seem to realise the irony of what she wrote.
I don't think you do, either.

Enough sour grapes since the referendum to fill a whole winery.????

Or should that be whinery?

Are you six Opal? This is not a childish game, mummy will not come and say "over tired" to excuse your name calling. This is our future and the OP - remember that - is about the illegalities surrounding the referendum.

Back to the OP- the Referendum was not illegal - it was clearly, and provenly, FRAUDULENT on a massive and multiple scale.

That was 3 long years ago now. If the government didn’t want to pursue fraudulent activity then its not something any of us can do anything about.

Time indeed to move on, to where we are now and deal with Brexit. Get it done then come together to make the best pathway forward as a country.
?

It was pursued- by the Electoral Commission. An independent official body. Their conclusions were quite clear. For any election, the various frauds would have led to automatic cancellation of the result.

And the tragic irony is, that the only reason they could not do so, lie in our own Sovereign Laws. And that is that in the UK; whatever promises made by politicians, a Referendum is, and can never be otherwise : ADVISORY. And therefore the EC cannot overturn an ADVISORY Referendum, as it has no official, legal, standing.

Callistemon I am not directly attributing my good fortune to the EU but I do think that the stability that the UK had since joining the EU enable many people to prosper.

As regards homelessness I am referring to the people living on the streets and not those who can't afford to buy.
When I was last in London, about 3 years ago we walked from the Opera House to The Strand and I was shocked to see the many people sleeping rough. Many of them would never have expected to be in that situation. They aren't all feckless people. This is not the fault of the EU but 10 years of Tory austerity.

The house that we bought back in 1979 had closing orders on it (this meant that without a change of ownership it would have been condemned). We were able to buy it because I borrowed the deposit from my father who had spare cash because my grandmother had died. For 3 years my husband worked 7 days a week, either on the house or as a self employed furniture restorer. For the first 6 months we had one cold water tap. We couldn't afford to rent something else so had to live in it. One of the consequences was my developing asthma as a result of living in an atmosphere of dust and chemicals. You could say that we overreached ourselves. We had no spare money - no dinners out, no purchases of books and records, no theatre visits. However, we ended up with a lovely home which we sold to the son of a Tory cabinet minister. The little enclave where we lived had suddenly become trendy and had been mentioned in Harpers Bazaar and the Observer property pages as being the next place to buy.

It was our choice to do without and we hadn't expected the renovations to take so long.

In the past I've heard young people say things like - I don't want to live in Catford, I want to live in Dulwich, or Camberwell. Often they have been brought up to be given what they want. My generation wasn't.

Obviously there is a link between house prices and young people having problems getting on the housing ladder. There are several reasons for this.

When I lived in Suffolk, one of the local authorities had a policy of not allowing planning permission for people to extend their homes because they realised that this was taking houses for first time buyers out of the property market.

Another reason is the baby boomers who live in their large family homes rather than downsizing when they no longer needed the large house. This has prevented younger families from moving up the ladder and so they have extended their homes.

Finally, my apologies fo going off piste a bit. (And we sold the house for £84,000, having spent what seemed to be a fortune on the renovation)

Okay, I understand that jura2
But it’s no use beating us who voted Leave about it. Howling us down at every opportunity Remain voters asking if we are happy to have the fraudulent result upheld?

Advisory? Yes in law.
But DC said this was a once in a generation choice and the decision would be implemented.

Leavers, who won the referendum, want Britain to leave the EU. Remainers, who lost the referendum, want to remain in the EU. There is no possible solution that will unite the country.

What is required is to accept the democratic principle that the winners' vote carries, and for losears to get behind doing so and stop trying to frustrate the will of the majority.

Parliament has repeatedly rejected the only deal available, legislated to make no deal happen under those circumstances, rejected a motion designed to stop no deal, and voted against revoking Article 50 in order to avoid no deal.

Brexit has won three national votes in as many years. No deal is backed by various economic experts such as Lord Mervyn King and Ruth Lee CBE. The Director-General of the WTO says no deal will be "perfectly managable" for the UK.

The Head of the UK Civil Service says the UK is in "good shape" for no deal. The UK's benchmark cross-government economic analysis predicts continued economic growth for the UK in the event of no deal. No deal is increasingly likely, increasingly the only option remaining, and increasingly impossible to stop.

Would you have been happy with Mrs May's deal, I wonder?

As for WTO, have you been listening to the business owners/representatives to the Commission:

www.facebook.com/FullEnglishBrexit/videos/465653300868821/

I would jura2 ... at the time. I posted a few times in fact that because it was a compromise neither ‘side’ was ‘happy’ and that maybe that was a good thing as it showed both sides had to accept less than what they’d hoped for.

It seemed ‘good enough’ to me. Not full Brexit but obviously not remaining either.

But it got roundly rejected and over time, the more I read articles on it, I was relieved it hadn’t been voted for!

Well, it’s looking like No Deal now.

Yep, because we can believe everything on Facebook !

Who's name calling GG? Shame you didn't criticise Jura when she called leavers some choice words before her post was deleted by Gransnet. Or can remainers call leavers anything they like? I just mentioned "sour grapes" in response to your post, hardly calling you names, just my view of your view .

What choice words? I said Leave demos have shown really bad extreme behaviour, not Gnetters.

Did you hear Laura Kuensberg today? She does not pull her punches now. Both candidates are promising things they cannot possibly garantee to deliver, both lying and deluded- Hunt is just nicer about it.

Well you obviously did use "choice words" Jura, or why would your post have been deleted by Gransnet? You know what you said, as I'm sure everyone else on this thread does as well.

I refuse to watch Laura K, her reports are so biased, they are a complete waste of time. I can pretty much predict what she is going to say and the slant she puts on news items before she even appears.

The conversation about Laura K is interesting. For a long time most people thought that she was a Brexiteer. I guess she is doing her job - asking the questions that we can't ask.

The BBC are always being taken to task for bias. They try very hard for balance but that is sometimes difficult. The common example is whether the earth is round. There will be a scientist confirming that the earth is round but they will also have a Flat Earther for balance.

I read somewhere that they often find it difficult to find experts to support the Leave position which is why we see the likes of Tim Martin, Mark Francois and Digby Jones so often on the tv. They are the only ones who have the time. Richard Walker, the chair of Iceland makes more sense that those 3 put together.

David Cameron is not above the law UG. Or are you now prepared to let people be above it if it serves your purpose?

No, obviously he shouldn’t be above the law.
But as our PM he promised things he ought not to have done.
But did us Joe Soaps know any different?
This one didn’t.

But did us Joe Soaps know any different?
This one didn’t

Ignorance is no defence in law, Ug. Cameron exceeded his constitutional powers in making that promise.

I find it extraordinary that people are willing to proclaim that all politicians lie, until the politician says something that they want to believe..

In any case, the rule of law is fundamental to our constitution. A political 'promise' should not override the result of a vote corrupted by gross illegalities.

The referendum was highly doubtful in its legality and dodgy dealing and dirty tricks is normal in politics, which is all irrelevant now.
3 yrs on, everyone I speak to would vote exactly the same way, there is no doubt that the pros and cons have been expounded ad nauseam to no effect whatsoever. I don’t see any end to this short of a GE with all its own uncertainties.

We are a nation divided now and no amount of saying we should pull together is going to put it right. I will never accept Brexit in my head or my heart. It doesn't make sense. For selfish reasons I wanted to remain a European to feel at one with my DGS who is a European, but for the good of the nation I also wanted to remain in the EU to continue to thrive as we have done for all those years. Cannot for the life of me grasp why we would want to destroy what we had with the largest market for our exports and take this quantom leap into the unknown with the WTO.

I'm afraid I'm unable to 'pull together ' to make Brexit work. My heart isn't in it. How on earth does an individual do that anyway? If I stop whinging and start 'believing', what difference can that possibly make to the thousands who have lost/will lose their jobs? To those who are already merely existing at the bottom of the ladder unable to claw their way up?

The nation seems more divided now than 3 years ago, although I read this morning that Mr Johnson thinks Brexit is going to bring the nation together. As usual he doesn't explain how.

Britain is broken. The Tories in their arrogance continue to put the party before the nation's good. I agree with Davidhs, a GE seems the only way to break this impasse before it's too late.

Good post, Ginny42. It says a lot of what I feel.

And me.

In fact I’m beginning to get quite panicky listening to Johnson plans. 100 day war cabinet etc. ??

D.C may not have had the authority to make the announcements he did, so why on earth did Parliament endorse each and every one of these promises all of which were made perfectly clear on the run up to the referendum including in the government leaflet delivered to every household in the land, none of which were challenged by other M.P's? I too believed what DC said, why would I not, as M.P's were apparently perfectly content, what was there not to believe?! D.C was not the only one who misled!

When did parliament 'endorse' those promises?

They voted for an advisory referendum. They were assured before voting that it was advisory. They did not vote to 'honour the result'. That was Cameron's own idea and made after the Act had been passed. By then it was too late for parliament to do anything about it. Nor could they alter the leaflet.

Back in Nov 2015 at the Chatham House speech DC made the terms of the referendum perfectly plain. Surely between then and June 2016 Parliament might just have thought, or even mentioned that these terms were actually not legal and therefore not his to promise? But MP's on all sides appeared to notice, let alone challenge!