Lib Dems Leadership

Yes, I wondered about that too, why fight for a second referendum if you aren’t prepared to accept the outcome
( whatever it may be?) Where is the democracy, or indeed, the logic?

This was from a YouGov poll commissioned by The Times. These are carried out regularly and respondants are asked how they voted in the last election and how they would vote now.

The LDs have NOT said that they would not accept the result of a second referendum, if the result still were to Leave. They would accept it, but they still wouldn't agree with it. Your logic is flawed. No referendum is ever going to produce a 100% for one side, so it's quite reasonable for MPs to continue to follow their own beliefs, even knowing that they will lose. It would be absolutely UNDEMOCRATIC for people to be told to change their vote because they will certainly be on the losing side. If you honestly believe that...hello dictatorship!

Engage your brain, lemongrove, and maybe you'll understand.

How can we now be in a democracy when there is a plan to close down Parliament so that our democratic representatives are silenced; and that some of those representatives [including my MP] wouldn't vote to stop that happening? None of it makes sense to me any more I'm afraid.

growstuff

Caroline Lucas said so on BBC Politics Live she would vote against a leave vote in a 2nd refendum/People Vote. Watch it if you can.

Jo Swinson has said it more than once in interviews, I ' think ' on Victoria Derbyshire but I watched her speaking on the BBC.

I can only find one site to let you hear and it will aggravate some as it is on a partisan site.

order-order.com/2019/07/23/jo-swinson-wont-accept-result-second-referendum/

Varian

The Times is behind a pay wall so I don't read it.

I guess you can't put a link up?

I really don't understand your issue. Of course, Swinson and Lucas would vote Remain in a second referendum. Why on earth would they do otherwise? They both passionately believe that Remain is the better option for the country and are entitled as anybody to make their views count. Both of the also believe that demographic and attitudinal change after three years means that the public might very well have changed their minds. Nowhere do I see that they wouldn't "accept" the result of a second referendum.

PS You're right. I wouldn't trust Guido as far as I could throw him.

There is a very strange undercurrent in the country that says "We voted, we won, now you must believe what we do". Just what will those who believe leaving is best for the country do if those who think being a member of the EU is best for the country do not change their minds?

We know they already demonise those who don't conform to their belief so what next? Burning at the stake for heretical views? Leavers cannot change the minds of those who disagree with them by beating them up either in reality or metaphorically on a forum.

growstuff

" I really don't understand your issue"
-

My issue is ever since the EU Referendum Result the Lib Dems and Greens have refused to accept the result.

Fine, their perogative but it doesn't say a lot for their view of democracy if they cannot accept they lost so the vote must be overturned at any cost.

They, like other parties, have gone hell for leather to get a 2nd Refendum under the guise of renaming it a Peoples Vote.

Their mantra has been:-

* The Voter didn't know what he/she was voting for.
* Those voted Leave are, you name it they were
called it, usually the uneducated /poor /left behind.
* The Voter was told a pack of lies.
* The voter has changed his/her mind now they
know/understand the facts.
* A Peoples Vote must take place to ' SETTLE ' the
argument now Voters minds have changed.
* We will not look for a 3rd Refendum if ' REMAIN' wins
the question will be ' SETTLED '. If the LEAVE vote wins
we carry on until we get what ' WE ' want and hang
democracy.

So it is as plain as day the Greens and Lib Dems continue to hold the position they will ' never accept ' another LEAVE vote if they got their way and a 2nd Referendum/Peoples Vote took place.

That is fine. Their perogative.

* What is the point of calling for another Referendum if you
won't agree to accept the decision for a 2nd / 3rd time?

* If there were another LEAVE vote we are back to square
one! Years of abusive language, political wrangling, you name it the voter has witnessed it it.

* The only way a 2nd Refendum /Peoples Vote would work is for Parliamentary Parties to ' finally' accept the result of a democratic vote, one ' they' have called for, irrespective of the result.

The latter point will depend on the individual MP's conscience but to say as the Greens and Lib Dems have done they will only accept a REMAIN vote tells us their position before a vote is even cast, only if ' WE ' get what ' WE ' want not what the voter wants.

As they say ' Bollocks to Brexit'.

growstuff.

I won't tell you to Engage your brain and maybe you'll understand as you rudely posted to another poster.

Try and keep this a difference of opinions open for us all to debate/discuss.

I am disputing whether they actually said they would only accept a Remain vote (other than as a battle cry). That seems to be a distortion of what was actually said.

Are you the forum monitor, POGS?

I think the heat ( temperature) and the other heat ( increased chances of Brexit happening now) is affecting
growstuff and a few others on here POGS.

Isn't it the case that after a 2nd referendum, Parliament would then have to vote on whether to accept the result of that referendum?

So these MPs are being asked if they would indeed vote to accept that result (as voted for by the electorate) if it was opposite to their own view?

If I've got that right, it would seem a bit silly to vote against accepting the result.

Jo Swinson said ,on camera ,yesterday that she wouldn't team with other parties to stop a no deal brexit........so why is she still saying she's anti it and anti brexit in any form? Shes a Tory in a yellow rosette

I missed that. I've heard her say that she wouldn't team up with a Corbyn-led Labour party (implying that she would, if Labour had a new leader). The LDs have actually co-operated nationally and locally with the Greens. Swinson has to be very careful about coalitions, given the history.

I'm perfectly fine thank you, lemongrove. I always like to know who thinks of herself as Queen Bee. There seem to be a few contenders on here.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/07/24/voting-intention-con-25-lib-dem-23-lab-19-brex-17-

grow ????????????????????
Just for you.

growstuff Fri 26-Jul-19 11:08:27

"Are you the forum monitor, POGS?"
----

Oh dear. When a else fails make a personal insult is the mantra for some today.

"I am disputing whether they actually said they would only accept a Remain vote (other than as a battle cry). That seems to be a distortion of what was actually said.
--
I gave you the information to see / hear for yourself from the horses mouth.

Lucas and Swinson have both said if a 2nd Refendum / Peoples Vote took place they will not accept a LEAVE vote. Why say a a Peoples vote will ' SETTLE ' the argument BUT only if the result is REMAIN.

There is no distortion of what they said.

What they are relying on is if a 2nd Referendum returned another LEAVE vote they can show their credentials by not accepting the result, voting against it again, but ' if ' other MP's with a conscience for the democratic vote do accept it and the problem goes away for them to be held accountable for refusing to accept a democratic vote they called for.

Growstuff your tone is very reminiscent of the now departed Maryeliza
I wonder if you might be related? ?

growstuff

" I always like to know who thinks of herself as Queen Bee. There seem to be a few contenders on here."
--

Why are you making it personal, have we crossed paths before?

Because some prefer to debate/disguss and provide facts and evidence it appears that is deemed as being worthy of personal insult.

That's GN for you, ever thus.

Over 5,000 people have joined the Lib Dems since Monday!

Varian

Thank you for providing the link.

However I don't see anything that eludes to your post:-

" The latest Yougov poll, taken since Jo Swinson became leader of the LibDems and Boris Johnson became Conservative leader, shows a doubling of the number of former Conservative voters who now intend to vote LibDem."

The poll appears to me of a General nature not a poll of Conservative voters intentions. How does it transit to a doubling of former Conservative voters intending to vote for the Lib Dems.

What am I missing?