Johnson and Brexit

No worse than Trump pointing to the heavens though and claiming he is the Chosen One.

That'll be the British bulldog spirit mostly - so relaxed and showing the French who's in charge <eye roll>. What an clown.

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Urmstongran Quote [ I think if it’s a No Deal Brexit the E.U. wont put up a border. In time, when it suits, they will throw the RoI under a bus.] End Quote.

Urmstongran, the Irish border issue is not just about protecting the Irish Republic as a member nation of the EU. For the European Union the border is about protecting the integrity of the entire EU market from goods that do not meet its standards after Britain withdrawals from the Union.

I do not believe that checks and restrictions will begin on the 1st of November, as at no border will the infrastructure for such checks be ready. However, the European Commission will very soon following that date come under great pressure from EU member Governments wishing to know why Britain as a third nation is still enjoying all the benefits of full membership.

It is then that the full checks will begin and the delays at the borders will begin.

The photo of Johnson with his foot on the table at the Elysée is doing the rounds all over the EU - it is truly shocking and incredibly rude and uncouth - and at this real crisis time, a real insult Incroyable

Maizie, been out foraging in the woods- but you have saved me having to write back to Grandad. Yes, even Farage said we could be like Norway and Switzerland - but they were lying- because it means all this 'Remaining in the Free Trade area (Norway type deal) means accepting FOM, doesn't it? Corbyn has said he won't accept that. So it doesn't look like a goer to me. It also means payments to the EU and no real say.'

Which is not acceptable to Corbyn, nor the ERG, nor most leavers now. Which takes me back to the reality - No Deal, and all the disasters that entails- or Remain. And to reiterate- NO cake and eat it solution, no unicorn either.

jura2, negotiations are where the parties involved start from a preset position and then seek compromise in those positions to bring about an agreement.

If following such negotiations the conditions of Britain remaining in the free trade area are not acceptable to any Labour negotiators put forward by a Labour Government, then obviously they will not be accepted. However, whatever comes out of those negotiations even if it is the same as the Theresa May withdrawal agreement, that will be placed before the British electorate in a referendum to accept and leave on those terms, or reject and remain in the EU on the terms the United Kingdom holds now

The above is the difference that a Labour government would take from the approach this shambles of a Tory government has taken.

Whats not to like.

Austerity wasn't the result of any Labour "spend, spend, spend" policy. It was caused by:

a) the global crash caused by the collapse in the US sub-prime market.

b) Tory ideology. Inequality has increased since austerity began began the rich have got richer.

Ironically, of course, the national debt has increased. So much for the Tories' being careful with the economy.

Oh dear, Opal. Look at this:

Sorry, can't make it any bigger. It comes from here:

www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/

The tory deficit starts where it goes up steeply... If you go to the link you can check the dates.

Vraiment jura c'est incroyable.

It’s the U.K. that is preparing to “throw the ROI under the bus” to use that charming turn of phrase. It is the EU that is fighting for their interests, and despite what leavers think the EU has an 80% approval rating in the ROI. Selfish and thoughtless is what Johnson’s government attitude towards ROI appears, They don’t care about damage to others as long as they’re all right jack. Just heard that only 1 in 7 of our rivers meet EU cleanliness standards, well that doesn’t matter matter does it?

The finishing sentence of a review of the recently televised documentary "The Day Montbatten Died" -

“Peace has to be worked at damn hard,” she says. It is not, she says, “a passive thing. It is always going to be a continuing responsibility on all of us in these islands to make sure that the conditions in Northern Ireland do not encourage the breakout again of sectarian tensions.” Maddeningly, there are people now who need to be reminded of this.

www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/aug/19/the-day-mountbatten-died-review-an-atrocity-that-still-haunts-lives-four-decades-on

So, come on Day6 and other leavers on the forum, tell us what would you have in place of the current EU

What a strange request.

Grandad I don't give a stuff as to what might replace the EU. When it implodes, as it surely will, it will be up to the member states to sort out the sorry mess and move on.

The UK is aiming to move on sooner rather than later, (fingers and everything else crossed) which seems to me, and to most Leave voters I'd imagine, an extremely sensible thing to do. We are looking to the world, not Merkel and Macron for our future. Merkel and Macron, and Germany and France, their nations, have severe internal problems of their own to sort out - they hardly inspire confidence. Look at the problems in Italy, Spain, Greece, Hungary, to name but a few - all have internal turmoil, much of it fuelled by EU membership.

I prefer to think about our future and how we will fare when we are no longer held back by the EU. If you like to fall asleep thinking of ways in which the EU could be replaced, good luck to you, but the future of the EU, once we are out, is not in the hands of the UK or it's citizens. If we were given a new improved EU Mk2 I'd still be loathe to join.

Corbyn, famous Eurosceptic and ally of Benn and the late union man Bob Crow worried about the power of the EU - as do I. I have always supported the Labour Leave group, firmly believing Brexit is and should be a left wing cause. I have written it many times.

I feel for Labour supporters who imagined the party would listen to them and their concerns, and now Corbyn has done a complete U turn and will come out as a remainer!!! It is beyond belief! Benn must be spinning in his grave. As he said, the EU is undemocratic, and it should not have the power it wields. We cannot protest or change things. New MEPs have already voiced this, after their first few meetings in Brussels.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQY2CHx4d3U

"It's the system" - Tony Benn.

New MEPs have already voiced this, after their first few meetings in Brussels.

I wonder what new MEPs those might be? Could they be the Brexit Party MEPs who have no interest whatsoever in participating?

The late lamented Tony Benn was one of the very few left leavers who always opposed the EU and as such is a great favourite for today's right wing brexiters to keep quoting,,

Sadly, he died five years ago, and we have no way of knowing what he might have made of today's debacle.

His son, Hilary Benn MP, almost certainly knows better than most of us and I respect his opinion as chairman of the brexit select committee,

Hilary Benn, whom I am sure loved and respected his father is utterly convinced, as most UK voters have been for the last two years or more that the best possible future for our country would be as a full member of the European Union.

The tory deficit starts where it goes up steeply... If you go to the link you can check the dates.
No MaizieD, look again, it starts to go up steeply in Jan 2009, when Labour still had another 16 months in power.
And look at the table underneath - net borrowing - reduced by over £100 billion under the Tories. As with most remainers on here, you only quote from statistics that suit your views, you don't give a balanced view on anything.

Do you understand economics opal

I am interested to see where you got this extremely dubious information from?

The website link that MaizieD gave above!

Or are you saying that Maizie's information is unreliable, WWM2?

So, who doesn't understand economics?

She got some of it from my link, Ww2, though interpretation is a bit dodgy...

I think you've missed a few years out, Opal. And disregarded the previous decade under Labour...

I wonder what new MEPs those might be? Could they be the Brexit Party MEPs who have no interest whatsoever in participating?

Or Eurosceptics who have heard what it's like, but can now see for themselves the way it works (or doesn't work) and it's excesses, maybe? It's quite revealing. They can evaluate the EU's gravy train reputation, for the benefit of the British taxpayer.

Funny how my interpretation is a bit dodgy, but yours is 100% accurate, yet it's from the same website. I'll leave it to other posters to check the facts for themselves.

So Day6 in regard to your post @-18:26 today, you state you care nothing for the stability of the European Union even though the United Kingdom is an integral part of Europe whether this nation is a member of the EU or not. Events in Europe have always had a large inpact on Britain and always will into the future.

You state further that you look to the world for Britains future. Would that future be aligned to the growing instability of the United States under the megalomaniac leadership of Donald Trump? That leadership is one that believes it should be able to purchase whole countries and their resident populations. When it is pointed out politely to him that cannot happen in a modern world, he then "stamps around like a spoiled brat cancelling visits.

Or would you prefer Day6 that Britain became much more aligned to the Far East where a totally undemocratic China increasingly dominates all that happens in that region.

There are other countries that perhaps you would wish Britain to have closer alignment with, Putin's Russia would be a good candidate with its plentiful supplies of gas and oil. Yes, a great trustful trading partner for a Britain out on its own.

The truth is that no single nation can be an island in terms of finance and trading terms in a commercially shrinking world. In that, the European Union is not perfect but as a member of that Union Britain can argue it's case for whatever change it feels is required, while from outside the Union Britain can change nothing.

The European Union is the largest and most powerful multi-nation trading block in the world, and as stated whatever happens within it (for the better or for the worse) will impact on Britain. Therefore better to be within and having influence than outside having none.

Of course the debt went up in 2009! Have you forgotten the global crash, which Labour didn't cause? What do you suggest the Tories could have done differently which wouldn't have involved borrowing money?