Meanwhile in Scotland 2

Thanks Sue. As said, I am looking at this as a total outsider- have had a few hols in Scotland, and never lived there. And I am trying to understand what is going on.

But if it is as bad as that- why did the SNP win a massive landslide, with both Labour and Tories being practically obliterated?

As an outsider, I see Johnson and the current Government, ERG and co- doing everything they can to alienate the Scots, by disrespecting their MPs in the HoC- taking back from Devolved Gvt, pushing them aside and the wish to remain in EU, etc, etc. This is how it is seen from Europe - everyone here I speak to, the Press, Tv, etc- say how badly Scotland is being treated- and how they would support their wish for Independence and to Remain- the support from here is massive. I have spoken to many entrepreneurs who say they would be prepared to invest in Scotland if it remains, and all my friends dream of going on holiday there- but have no intention of visiting UK anymore- even though it is cheap due to exchange rate.

So what's to be done?

I don't want Scotland to leave the union. Apart from the fact that the map of the country would look weird and the union jack wouldn't be the same without the blue, Westminster would probably have a Conservative government until the end of time without the Scots.

Johnson doesn't have any incentive to keep Scotland.

I’d like a federal system like Germany. Far more control and autonomy over our own affairs but remaining as part of a UK and I’d like to stay within the EU in a customs union - I suspect neither suits the UK or Scottish Govt though.

Jura2 wrt people voting for the SNP at the general election, the election literature coming through our door said that a vote for the SNP at this time would not be a vote for independence, it was a vote to be rid of the Tories. It seems that a lot of people mistakenly believed the SNP about that. The ink was scarcely dry on the results when Ms Sturgeon began her claims that the GE result was a vote for another referendum.

As expected, the blonde buffoon has rejected the SNP's request for a second referendum this year and Nicola is ragin'.

So what now??

We’ve got Alec Salmond’s trial to look forward to next, SirChenjin!

Yes - interesting times ahead Sue

Whatever some here think of the SNP- the fact the Act of Devolution is being totally ignored and disrespected- combined with the vote on Brexit and the last GE- give them a very clear mandate to request the right for a Referendum on Independence.

It is indeed a Constitutional crisis of epic proportion.

Nicola must be thankful for Boris's insistence in adhering to the referendum result. It gives her another wonderful opportunity to distract her flag waving followers by raging about Westminster and take their eye off the SNP's disastrous record in government.
They've had more than a decade to show what they can do. Unfortunately for them that's all to clear in the new survey that shows Scotland tumbling down the economic and social rankings.

Yes indeed, the total disrespect and arrogance shown by Johnson and English Tories - is indeed a gift for the SNP- and it probably will work too.

SNP have had the 'gift' of more than a decade to show they can actually run the country. Its been disastrous.
Scotland has plenty of representation at Westminster and always has had.

But Scotland voted to Remain, and voted SNP at last election- so the lack of respect and acknowledgement of the above is 'gifting' them with massive support- irrespective.

I imagine NS will harness Westminster’s rejection to bolster her Indy2 pitch.

Exactly, it is being handed to her and SNP on a plate by Johnson and the Tories.

SNP Scottish National Party 45.0%
CON Conservative 25.1%
LAB Labour 18.6%
LD Liberal Democrat 9.5%
GRN Green 1.0%
BRX The Brexit Party 0.5%

She will certainly try but the support for independence hasn’t really risen - or certainly not to the extent that will guarantee them a win. We need to wait and see what comes our way after Brexit - and if it’s as bad as it appears to be then with a bit of effort the part of the SNP, a clear pathway towards rejoining the EU and some sensible economics they could get the support they need from people like me who will hold their noses and vote yes.

Brexit's done. We need to move on to the work of finding the best trade deals etc rather than going on about it ad infinitum. SNP have had a long chance to show they are any good.
The Salmond trial in March will be interesting.

Do you not believe in the principles of Devolution Jane?
And a clear democratic choice?

Brexit isn’t done - that happens at the end of January and then the process of negotiating begins. Until we’ve got a clearer idea what that will look like later this year and into next then it’s pointless to bang on about another independence referendum as they have nothing to offer other than further uncertainty and disruption and no clear route back into the EU if those negotiated deals are as poor for the UK as many of us believe they will be.

Not banging about anything. As said before, I have never lived in Scotland- but I am trying to understand the issues as an outsider- as I read in the Press, listen to news and speak to friends and others on Remain sites.

The vote for Remain in Scotland was clear, unlike the leave vote in UK- and the last election results very clear too. People obviously did not trust to Tories or Labour to look after their interests- including independence and Remain.

Not - I meant there’s no point in the SNP banging on about it!

It’s not as simple as Tory/Labour bad and can’t be trusted - the yes/no vote is split across parties as was the leave/remain, and while the SNP might have the largest single vote they don’t have a mandate for independence. As I’ve said repeatedly, the Indy lobby could get a yes vote if they had something to offer in terms of EU membership but at the moment they’re offering nothing new. Remember that Scotland has had years of wrangling and divisions and uncertainty - many of us are tired and want a chance to evaluate our options before we vote yes/no on something as enormous as independence from the rUK. They are simplistic answers to complex questions which haven’t yet been phrased properly.

* No

Thank you SirC - all I am doing is trying to understand- from outside.

We’re trying to understand it all from the inside too! It’s certainly a divisive issue as you’ll see from some of the earlier posts on here - the bitterness and mud slinging that has been ongoing during the Indy referendum and Brexit has been exhausting. Gonnae gies us break please politicians!

The Sunday Times reporting on a new poll conducted by Lord Ashcroft the Toty Peer directly after BJ's visit to Scotland.

A majority of Scots back independence as Boris Johnson sets Britain on course for a no-deal Brexit, a poll suggests

Forty-seven per cent back another referendum on independence within the next two years, in line with Nicola Sturgeon’s demand for a new vote by 2021, with 45 per cent disagreeing .
According to the poll, 46 per cent would vote Yes to independence and 43 per cent No. This equates to a 52 per cent vote for independence, excluding those who are unsure or would not vote. It was the first lead for an independent Scotland for more than two years.

That poll was in August 2019. Since then even more evidence of SNPs inept government is highlighted every day. If SNP had taken the opportunity to govern well it might have more of a chance of being taken seriously.