A very English Brexit

Well said Sazzl,agree 100%.

Vote was corrupted by fraud, lies and illegalities, sazzl. The result was not 'safe' and it should have been re-run, as it would have been had it been mandatory rather than advisory. It was not democratic.

If you don't want to argue, that's fine. Others will do precisely what they want to do.

Why should the thread be deleted?

If you don't like it, there are hundreds of other threads on Gransnet.

As far as I know, people in the UK are still allowed (within some limits) to voice their opinions.

Oh dear, lots of knickers in a twist on here today. Sex, politics and religion, always a no no unless you want to get people riled up. Everyone has different opinions, all of them are correct. There is no "wrong" opinion. It belongs to the person saying it and it's what they believe. End of.

"Nicola Sturgeon is one of those who thinks the Scottish referendum should be repeated until she likes the result"

The Scottish people voted No to independence in 2014 - before the Referendum of 2016, before we were due to leave the EU but that has now changed so of course the referendum should be re-run. Don't blame them at all.

Yes, Scotland should have another referendum on whether to leave the UK. Nicola Sturgeon is obsessed with it. While we're about it, how about Northern Ireland having one too? It will give them a chance to decide which is in their best interests..staying in the UK or becoming part of a united Ireland (which is really the best outcome for us). What about Wales? Could the country survive on its own?

GracesGranMK3 - I've got to the stage of wondering when/where the 'ENGLISH' can sign up for Independence from Westminster.

I thought the U.K. was one big family? Surely we should look at the referendum as a majority vote instead of splitting us up in a divisive way ‘the Scots didn’t vote for it, the Irish didn’t vote for it’. Well some of our ‘family’ did!

I am definitely for decentralisation from Westminster.

Parliament should be held somewhere more central (yes I know that would raise a whole other argument), or indeed even move from time to time to different areas of the country in order to achieve a better, more rounded perspective.

McDonnell's 'proposal' to place the Exchequer 'in the North' is the right idea. Pity, really...

I think the real reason for the division is the assumption that a minority of the population can force the rest of the country into reducing freedoms, and economic decline whether they want to or not. The referendum result was not the huge landslide you would imagine if you listen to the extremists rhetoric. It was a small % of the total population many of whom are no longer with us. This idea we should all “pull together “ to make a success of the risk of food and medicine shortages, civil unrest, a sinking £, job losses is a non starter. The undemocratically elected leader of a weak government, whose strings are being pulled by unelected advisors, threatening to assume the position of dictator and ignore the wishes of parliament is not democracy in anyone’s book.

But we could use that argument every time there is an election. The Tories won by a very small majority last time but the fact remains that they DID win and so we have a Tory government. Corbyn kept saying 'we're ready to form a government' so he obviously didn't accept the result. He keeps saying now that we should have another election, even though the present indications are that Labour wouldn't win.

We had a referendum...the majority, however small, voted to leave the EU. That was the result. That is how democracy works.

That is how democracy works.

Well, it isn't, Roseleah; that is a very crude and simplistic version.

But I really CBA to argue the toss with you..

Yes, MaisieD..it's all pretty pathetic isn't it? Here we are in the middle of summer, stuck indoors and arguing with strangers. Why aren't we outside enjoying the weather before that belt of rain arrives?

For me, I have an allergy to sunshine so have to stay indoors. Plus there are roadworks right outside my window and I can't concentrate on my sewing, which is what I should be doing.

By the way, if the result of the referendum had been Remain, would you have accepted it...even if the majority were only miniscule? Or does democracy not work when the result is not what you wanted?

RosieLeah, You have a very simplistic view of democracy (you're not alone). People have written thousands of books about the meaning of democracy. I'm sure you could find a few, by different authors to give you a balanced view and enlighten you as to the complexity of the issue.

The referendum was NOT the same as a general election. We have an opportunity to vote for a new government every five years and a change of government does not result in the kind of upheaval caused by Brexit.

Good grief! What's with the childish and snide comments?

I was perfectly prepared to shrug my shoulders and accept the referendum result in 2016. However, as I've found out more about the people behind it, the "dark money", the manipulation techniques and the mentality of many people who voted to leave, I've become increasingly angry.

Ellpammar19 Wed 07-Aug-19 13:27:47 Why do you say the EU is undemocratic, we had the EU elections not long ago and the Commissioners are appointed by each country. They also have civil servants just like us.

I think you will find that most of us are thinking about our grandchildren and the country they will have to live in. It is fine to object to aspects of the EU, we all do, but surely you should also think about the implications of leaving? Have you seen the WTO tariffs list? Doesn't that bother you? Yes, definitely'better the devil you know' stay where we are rather than going cap in hand round the world for some sort of deal.

Notagranyet2 Wed 07-Aug-19 15:57:32 Well said.

minnie you were lucky in the 70s but did you have equal pay with men? Have you benefited from all the EU employment law?

Things will become temporarily unavailable as the Ex-CEO of Sainsburys has said but we will survive although the costs will go up and I have no idea how poor people will manage. Of course importing manufacturing parts will become much more expensive with the result that some firms will be forced to close down. So easy for those of us on pensions to ignore what younger people will have to face.

Let us just go back to why we had the referendum. It was because so many MPs were supporting UKIP. Cameron wanted to show that the new party had little support, and they were wasting their time. He got the mood of the people wrong.

Perhaps the whole thing should have been dealt with differently. Perhaps a debate in the Commons might have been better....the pros and cons of being in the EU...then a vote for whether it was worth 'going to the people'.

That way, perhaps all the little details might have been made public and voters might have been fully informed of the reality. Many people voted in an emotional way, rather than considering the benefits and drawbacks. It's also true that, as always with any election, people are concerned about how they personally are affected.

As I'm in my latter years, I have no personal issues and in fact, my own children are better off if we stay in the EU. However, I'm concerned with the future of Great Britain and Europe as a whole and I would like to see the EU return to being the Common Market, as it was when we first joined.

Jilly I too am puzzled. I seem to have missed the reason why an EU army is a bad thing. Please explain.

What are the negatives of being a US of Europe, although that is not going to happen?

Your first point, I'm sorry to say is very narrow. When we help out poorer countries their economy improves which means they buy more from us and in the end it is better all round. Would you help a weaker member of your family to get back on their feet?

RosieLeah Wed 07-Aug-19 20:58:28 you can take us out of the EU but not the Internet. All the English language stuff will still be there and that is the major cause of the decline in standards. The decline has nothing at all to do with the EU.

When did we all become so selfish? We seem to have turned into the ME, ME, ME generation. Why can't we look at the greater good?

We pay annual membership to both English Heritage and National Trust and some years don't use them at all. We do it because it is for the greater good and preserves our heritage. Why can't we all stop being so mean spirited?

It is so easy to moan about everything but look at the bigger picture. Why can't parliament agree? Because many of them recognise that leaving the EU will be bad for us all. Surely after 3 years the only sensible thing to do is give us the facts and ask us to vote on them. Simply revoking A50 would be too harsh and divisive.

Notagranyet2's account of her experience of Britain in the 1970s mirrors mine. I had spent my childhood and youth in Sweden and later lived and worked in Germany and Switzerland. I arrived in the UK in 1971 and I must say it was a culture shock. This is how I experienced things:

Housing – many houses were small, no central heating, no double glazing. I rented a room when I first arrived in London and there was a strange object on the floor that I had to put coins in! I lived in Kensington and later Hampstead and I don't believe they were considered poor areas.

Telephones – many people did not own one.

Electrical appliances – I bought an electric hair dryer. When I opened the box I noticed there was no plug attached; I took the dryer back to the store and asked for my money back not realising I had to put the plug on myself.

Furniture – oh dear. Often very little choice and poor quality unless you had a lot of money.

Transport – I frequently travelled by train. They seemed to pride themselves on being late or cancelled. Also, non-corridor compartments were in use, hardly the safest way to travel. Something else I found extraordinary was that adult car passengers could sit with a child on their laps – completely unrestrained. Apparently it was allowed.

Food – just one word – Mother's Pride bread

Clothes – yes, I also found that many people were badly dressed. Even in winter I saw women swearing sandals.

Class – and how that determined your whole existence.

I know some of you will disagree with me but what I have outlined above is my experience. If you have always lived in one place you have nothing to compare with.

Comparing the country I arrived in in 1971 and the country I live in now is like comparing night and day. It saddens me that 52% of the electorate now wants to return to the ”good old days”.

Nonnie, I agree with all your points, but am too lazy to write them and you got there first.

Same here, Greta. I worked in Germany just after the UK joined the Common Market and it was an eye-opener.

PS. I can't say I was too impressed with the days I spent in a number of offices getting my work visa, opening a bank account or getting a health check, but that was all before freedom of movement.

For all who are banging on about democracy.

Scotland VOTED for the SNP .The SNP has as its core policy Independence .Therefore Nicola Sturgeon has a mandate FOR Independence .Like it or not when the same party has a majority for 10 years and there are tens of thousands of grass roots supporters taking to the streets every week then Independence is going to be the topic we talk about .

The support is rising daily with the BREXIT problem.Brexit will decimate our economy ,that is widely acknowledged EVEN by Ruth Davidson your pet Tory down south ..though she has fallen out of favour .
I would love tosee the Celtic nations take back control of their countries ,Up until the Irish parted company with WM in 1922 there were accounts published that showed we paid in 68% more than we got back ,the rest was spent on "Imperial services " while people in Scotland lived in slums. .Churchill even sent tanks in to quell our attempts to get fairer hours at work .
Once Ireland went the accounts stopped being published ..simply because they didn't want us to realise that we could be like ireland and be in charge of ALL our income and laws.Read Mc Crone and see that life hasn't changed .

We still contribute far more than we get back,we have NO say in WM becaus 85% of MP's are English and outnumber us by 10-1 or more .Democracy doesn't exist in the Union.Scotland needs to get out ,before we're dragged under by boris and co .

The English upper class now gets it power from commerce. Just like Trump.