Gordon Brown writing in today’s states that growing nationalism is pulling the United Kingdom apart, driving it towards an unprecedented economic calamity and unleashing the most serious constitutional crisis since the 17th century.
he says unionism is “sleepwalking into oblivion”, fuelled by a “destructive, populist, nationalist ideology” deployed by Boris Johnson.
“If we are to understand why we are facing not only our most serious constitutional crisis since the 17th century but at the same time an unprecedented economic calamity precipitated by a no-deal exit from the European Union, we must recognise that nationalism is now driving British politics,” he writes.
“It follows that only thus - as an outward-looking, tolerant, fair-minded and pragmatic people - can Britain recover its cohesion and common purpose. These precious ideals could not survive the divisiveness and chaos of a no-deal Brexit. To prevent the rise and rise of dysfunctional nationalism the first step is to stop no-deal in its tracks.”
His comments come amid mounting fears that a no-deal Brexit would hasten the end of Scotland’s membership of the UK. Three-fifths of Scottish voters (60%) believe that support for Scottish independence would increase after a no-deal Brexit, according to new Focaldata polling for the anti-racist Hope Not Hate campaign. Most Tory supporters said they regarded the end of the union as a price worth paying to achieve Brexit. Some 57% of Conservative party supporters agreed with this view, in a separate UK-wide poll of 3,200 adults for Hope Not Hate.
I would be interested to hear other views, is Brexit worth putting the UK Union at risk, what benefits would we gain to make it worth while.?
Personally, I am utterly sick of this Brexit sickness, which is tearing our country and even families apart for sheer dogma.
We had a special place in Europe, with opt-outs and allowances other countries envied,
We opted out of the Euro as a currency, thank goodness. We are still liable (if we remain within the EU) to bail out the unstable Euro to the tune of billions of UK taxpayer's money if it fails. Are you aware of that?
Other than that we had no special allowances as Cameron's futile meetings in Brussels pre the referendum illustrated so well.
Evidence is emerging that it's not a historic document either, but written within the last month, certainly after the original deadline.
I'll post the evidence when it's clarified.
I was hearing the same thing on the various news programmes last night, growmore. It seems this was asked for by the Johnson government as a "what's likely" scenario not a "worst case" one. This updated view is, apparently, now seen as worse than the initial findings for the May government.
But, of course, we shouldn't take any notice of the expert advice but "believe" in sunny uplands and Great Britain having, it seems, ditched Ireland as being "too difficult".
Link to the above Road Haulage Association statement can be found here:-
www.rha.uk.net/news/press-releases/2018-07-july/brexit-and-the-uk-haulage-industry-%E2%80%93-no-deal-no-jobs-no-food
Oh dear...we're all doomed!
Day6 Quote [We opted out of the Euro as a currency, thank goodness. We are still liable (if we remain within the EU) to bail out the unstable Euro to the tune of billions of UK taxpayer's money if it fails. Are you aware of that? ] End Quote.
Well, I am no currency expert that's for sure. However, to me and many others who reside in Britain at this time, the Euro currency has certainly looked a lot more stable than the British pound over the last twelve months.
I'm interested in how exactly the UK is liable to bail out the allegedly unstable Euro too.
Idiot Cameron also, in his 'futile meetings' got an opt out from bailing out failing euro countries. Did that not count?
It's an integral part of the Leavers' Litany, growstuff 
Exactly, Maizie.
Has the situation changed since 2016?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36456277
Cameron's meeting with the EU wasn't at all futile, although the Brexit-supporting media didn't want to admit that.
Yeah, I know.
I've been following a Brexit extremist on Twitter. She keeps coming up with outlandish lies, but her followers get themselves into a frenzy about them. Each time they retweet, the lie gets even bigger and they come out with more lies. It's quite fascinating to watch. It seems as though it's a focus for pent up hate.
It's like watching a drunken brawl. Maybe they are drunk or drugged (for all I know), but I'm honestly beginning to think they have a psychological problem.
From your link, growstuff
If the eurozone was to collapse, the negative economic impact would be felt in the UK regardless of whether it is in or out of the EU.
This is what has always puzzled me. Why did Leavers think that leaving the EU would make us immune from the effects of collapse of the euro? Or, indeed, from their gleefully predicted 'implosion' of the EU? If the EU were to 'implode' it would have huge global repercussions which we couldn't avoid.
You could not be more correct MaizieD. Should the European Union implode the repercussions would be worldwide and that would deeply affect our economy even if we had withdrawn as a member.
I too do not understand why so many of the Brexitiers so much look forward to the collapse of the EU.
Rediculas thinking.
I've given up trying to understand the mentality of Brexiters. You can't reason with them. They've become zealots.
If the EU and Euro collapse, the UK will sink anyway, whether or not we're in the EU.
I've studied European economic history at a serious level. Any conflict or disruption on mainland Europe or Ireland has always affected the UK, even before anybody even dreamed of the EU.
When the UK lent Ireland a few billions in 2010 (?), the reason was that a bankrupt Ireland would have adversely affected the UK. We didn't have to lend the money and we weren't being altruistic. It was a hard-headed financial decision for our own benefit.
Day 6 was not speaking based on knowledge. As is often the case she was just chirping out something she thinks someone else said somewhere without any factual basis or reference to anyone whose view might be believable. If this isn't the case we would be shown the facts.
Likewise RosieLeah's throw away remark with, again, nothing to explain why the path the Tory's have us on is not one which may pretty much be like living in an unreconstructed Germany after the war except, in our case we will have damaged ourselves and driven away those countries who might give us help.
If one single Leavers can tell me HOW and WHY this will not be the case giving us the expert details not a wish list.
MaizieD Sun 18-Aug-19 21:55:46
OK, POGS, Juncker, who is just about to end his term of office, wants QMV and alignment of taxation. Who else? Or is one man 'the EU'.---
You have picked on one name without reading the story.
It is the EU Commission of which Junker was the President of at the time. So the reply to your question is there are many who want to stop member states vetos and stop Member States having Unanimity over their respective countries taxation by changing to QMV / Qualified Majority Voting - a system of weighted votes.
www.euractiv.com/section/economy-jobs/news/eu-wants-end-to-member-state-veto-on-tax/
'The European Commission on Tuesday (15 January) proposed to end the veto power member states have over EU tax matters, an idea rejected by several smaller countries including low-tax hub Ireland.
A more harmonised tax policy across Europe has long been a dream of pro-EU forces in Brussels and recent scandals have regenerated Brussels’ desire for an easier way to pass legislation across the bloc.
The European Commission, the EU’s executive arm, said it will launch a debate with member states on allowing new EU tax laws to be approved by qualified majority rather than unanimously.'--
It is only a proposal / debate but it has been mooted for years and certainly gaining traction although countries such as Ireland are against it. If however QMV is enacted Ireland will only be able to ' have it' s say ' but it will have to abide by what the Majority Vote produces. How will UK countries who break away from the Union guarantee their Independence to set their taxation if they are a member of the European Union which increasingly heading for a Federal State.
It is a question not a statement it will happen but it comes back to the question of how Independent countries can be inside the EU.
Poll finds majority of Northern Irish voters back a backstop to stay close to the EU
www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/lucidtalk-poll-for-northern-ireland-on-irish-backstop-1-6222971
I'm looking into it POGS
But it should be emphasised that the tax harmonisation proposals apply to corporate taxes, not domestic taxes (e.g income tax, NI & VAT)
It seems that some of the smaller member states are objecting because they have low corporate tax regimes, designed to attract corporate investment, but the flip side of that seems to be the situation where global companies assign their profits to the low tax country they are based in, in order to pay the lowest rate of tax on them, even though their profits may be generated in other EU countries. The claim is that this lowers the tax take in those countries and shifts the tax burden onto the workers. Low corporate tax rates can also be seen as perhaps breaking State Aid rules...
I can see why this is a contentious issue in member states.
The EU's other proposal seems to be for the simplification of VAT collection between member states to avoid fraud. No implications for control of domestic VAT rates. This one appears to be non threatening..
ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/action-plan-vat/single-vat-area_en
The E.U. isn’t going to implode, it will evolve into a different beast, when it comes to trade there is far too much to loose by splitting up into factions. Judging by the latest elections most will become more nationalistic but still want trade advantages.
It will almost certainly become less federal which is just what we wanted and we should be in there reforming the E.U. not leaving.
It has been quite remarkable how strongly the other 27 member nations of the European Union have held together over the last three years since the fraudulent referendum.
The Leave liars often said that if we voted to leave other nations would follow. This is exactly the opposite of the truth, as is everything the Leave liars said.
Maizie d
It still comes down to member states losing their right of veto / Unanimity and having to abide by Majority Vote possibly.
As we have now both said this affects the smaller countries and a country like Ireland which has low Corporation Tax would be hammered if it had to raise Corporation Tax in line with the other 27 member states dictat.
Changing to QMV is to the advantage for the larger financial countries such as Germany and France who are disadvantaged, as we are, by Countries such as Ireland who have been very successful having Unanimity on taxation.
It still begs the question how could countries in the UK such as Scotland who want Independence be totally Independent if QMV is passed by the EU Parliament and financial regulation no longer allows any Member State the right of veto or Unanimity?
Is the UK at risk of disintegrating if a no deal brexit is not stopped?
In my opinion, this is not just a risk but a virtual certainty.
How disgraceful that this fiasco could be brought about by the Conservative and UNIONIST Party.
Staying with taxation, is it desirable to have all states with the same tax regime?. That sounds like more integration not less and I really don’t think that’s on the cards, each national government has its own priorities on spending, do we really want to tax Greeks the same as the Swedes.
There is one tax change that needs to be made, multinational companies should pay tax in each country not in the lowest tax rate country
David
'That sounds like more integration not less and I really don’t think that’s on the cards, each national government has its own priorities on spending, do we really want to tax Greeks the same as the Swedes.' --
It would be more integration leading to a more Federal State. It is possibly ' on the cards' and the outcome of that would mean Member States losing their right to veto/Unanimity and if passed some taxes will mean Greece has a taxation the same as Sweden.
As far as I know, Davidhs, there is (and never has been) any suggestion that countries should harmonise personal income tax.
Specific targets of EU tax harmonisation would be the US digital tax giants, who currently pay very little corporate tax.
In the case of Greece, ordinary Greeks would probably benefit if their own country were more efficient at collecting the taxes legally owed (but that's another story).
The tax harmonisation issue actually shows that individual countries do have a voice in the EU.
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