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Why are so many so scared and against Federalism?

(101 Posts)
jura2 Fri 04-Oct-19 10:31:16

Honest and open question.

The USA is made up on individual States, with their own Laws- and extremely varied in geography, culture, business, past history, and so much more. Anyone who has travelled in the USA can see that. Arizona and New Mexico are so different to, say, NY State, or Philadephia, or Vermont, etc, etc. And yet, somehow it works. Do you think the USA individual States would be more efficient and successful if they split up?

Switzerland, is too, on a different scale. 4 languages, and a definite split in historical and cultural outlook- the French and Italian speakers being so different to the German Kantons- and both sides, huge differences between larger cities like Zurich and Geneva - and the surrounding more rural regions.

Would Switzerland be more effective and sucessful if they split up in individual C/Kantons and 'regions'.

Why do people think it 'works' for the USA - but would NOT work for Europe.

vampirequeen Fri 04-Oct-19 11:50:17

I have no idea. Seems a perfectly reasonable system to me.

Jabberwok Fri 04-Oct-19 12:03:53

It works for the USA is because the States were never, like Europe, individual countries in the first place. The States all speak the same language, all emerged at roughly the same time, and although different, they are, and always have been from conception, Americans and proud of it. Europe is made up of countries that have their own individual histories, language and traditions some going back for a thousand years, which people are proud of and not willing to relinquish in the interests of becoming part of a federal state where individualism is frowned upon!

Grandad1943 Fri 04-Oct-19 12:19:37

jura2, in Britain there are so many that harbour a "Little Englander" mentality that does not allow then to even consider alliance with any other nation.

The thought of Europe even having such organisation as joint armed forces is totally abhorrent to them they will not even take into deliberation that in its present strength of the UK armed forces could not defend these islands in an attack from an aggressor such as Russia for more than a few days....if that.

Britains only chance would be to fight allied to other European countries, so why not link those armies in advance so they would all have the same equipment and training and in that be far more efficient.

Of course, politically those "Little Englanders" cannot even stomach the alliance of the European Union as it is at present, although when asked none seem to be able to inform anyone as to what harm Britains forty-year membership of the EU has done the United Kingdom.

GabriellaG54 Fri 04-Oct-19 13:37:52

I'm not a Little Englander which is, IMV, a scathing and derogatory term for someone who is proud of tgeir heritage and country of birtg and proud to be British/English.
Texans are proud to be from Texas.
Welsh are proud to be Welsh and Scots, Scottish. So it is with some people born in England, among whose number I am proud to be counted. ?????????

GabriellaG54 Fri 04-Oct-19 13:38:49

tgeir birtg their birth

Jabberwok Fri 04-Oct-19 13:38:52

Why is it ok to be patriotic if you are a Scots person (and proud of it!) or a Welsh person, ditto, or an Ulster person, ditto, but to be a patriotic English person gives rise to sneery jeery comments! Wonder why that is?!

Pantglas2 Fri 04-Oct-19 13:43:09

And what’s worse is that it’s your fellow English saying it!

FarNorth Fri 04-Oct-19 13:44:05

The 'sneery jeery' comments are about a particular type of English person who has an antagonistic attitude towards those who are not English.

growstuff Fri 04-Oct-19 13:46:59

Being a "Little Englander" isn't just about being English, but describes a sort of parochialism.

I'm English to the core and I've never been sneered or jeered at for being English. On the other hand, I identify more as British and European.

growstuff Fri 04-Oct-19 13:47:51

Agree with you, FarNorth. It's not about being Einglish per se.

growstuff Fri 04-Oct-19 13:48:13

or even "English". Ooops!

growstuff Fri 04-Oct-19 13:51:35

I can't say I'm proud of being English or British, because that was just chance. However, I'm extremely grateful for my nationality and I'm proud of the values my country has (or used to have before the current shambles). If I had to choose a nationality at the moment, I'd be Irish because that would give me more options.

TerriBull Fri 04-Oct-19 14:39:33

America cannot be compared with the EU, firstly it was appropriated by Europeans and when they travelled there to make their new lives, that decision was absolute, they could not stay rooted to "the old country" in the same way as it is possible to now with the tools at our disposal such as the internet. So whilst they retained elements of where they came from food, language, en masse they were signing up to collective new ethos and they were doing that of their own volition rather than having it foisted upon them, with the exception of black slaves who being snatched from whence they came had no choice in anything.

As for "Little Englanders"a big bollocks to that! I have quite a few cousins in France, who are a quarter English as we share the same grandma, they are far more entrenched in their Frenchness and everything French than I have ever been in being part English, born and bred here, whether they are typical I couldn't say, a couple of them hate seeing French culture being diluted, my perception that is not the case here, or at least around London where I live. Although it didn't preclude one of them wanting to come and live here in London with our grandparents when he thought he might be drafted into the Algerian war when he was a young man, although happily for him that finished around the time that might have been a possibility.

However, from what I read there is very little appetite for federalism in Europe, indeed where other parts of family emanate from Sicily, they don't even see themselves as anything to do with the Northern part of Italy, the mindset is regional. Well a bit like our friend north of the border who doesn't see themselves as being part of Britain.

As the French are prone to say "Vive La Difference" it's what makes us all special! not being some unwieldy homogeneous mass.

jura2 Fri 04-Oct-19 14:45:38

A pity the question is being diverted.

Gabriella 'Texans are proud to be from Texas.
Welsh are proud to be Welsh and Scots, Scottish. So it is with some people born in England'

Oh yes, and nothing wrong with that at all. But you make my point so well. Texans are proud to be Texans, but part of the USA. Welsh, Scots and English are proud to be so - but also (not always) proud to be British.

Europeans are proud to be French, or German, or Italians - and also proud to be European (yes, not always). At the same time, Tuscans are proud to be Tuscans, and so are Sicilians- and yet proud to be Italians and Europeans too. Why can they, and so many in the UK don't seem to be able too.

Should we go back to Wessex and Sussex and the Danelaw, etc. Being English does not preclude being British which does not preclude from being European too.

I thin it is a bit like children- because you love and are proud of more than one, who are very different, does not make you love one less or more.

As said, why can the Swiss and the Americans do it?

jura2 Fri 04-Oct-19 14:47:46

But Terribull- that is the very point - USA and Switzerland have not become 'unwieldy homogeneous' masses.

jura2 Fri 04-Oct-19 15:07:40

Do you think it is not possible to feel like a Northener, a Scouser or Geordie, English and British too? Or a Southerner, Cornish, English and British. Or a Midlander from East Midlands and from Leicester, who feels English and British too- with perhaps a strong kinship to Ireland and Pakistan due to heritage. And so on.

Or do you want to go back to the Potteries, when someone from Stoke felt totally alien and the natural enemy of someone from Burslem or Hanley?

Tweedle24 Fri 04-Oct-19 15:17:05

I think that the route the EU is taking to federalism is the problem, not federalism per se. Currently the EU seems to be run by a consortium of unelected ‘representatives’.
The other countries mentioned such as Switzerland and the US have democratic leadership. As has been said already, there is a difference between a newly emerging country deciding to become a federal entity and a group of other countries with ingrained individual cultures and histories.

Chestnut Fri 04-Oct-19 15:28:48

Jabberwok Fri 04-Oct-19 12:03:53 - you have answered the OP's question in a nutshell and so well that there is nothing more to be said. Well done!

jura2 Fri 04-Oct-19 15:30:25

Switzerland was initially formed in 1291 - and added to slowly until 1848. And as said, the different regions are very distinctive, culturally, geographically, historically, linguistically, etc. The regions covered obviously existed far before the 13C - with massively diverse history and features.

absthame Fri 04-Oct-19 15:38:52

It is often believed that federal identity is a replacement for national,regional or other such identity but it need not, nor should not be.

I am British through and through being a product of Irish, English and Scottish stock and identify myself as British, never English nor do I wish to be seen as English. Why? Because my English roots are in the NE and NW very remote from the English centre of power the South East, although that is were I have lived for most of my life. However I know how illserved the people of the NE,NW, Ireland, Scotland and for that matter Wales and all of the English provences outside the SE has been served by all English governments throughout my lifetime.

Although the EU does not offer the full benefits of a federal state it has offered many of them. Without their input the Welsh tongue would still be confined to obscure parts of N Wales. Without their input one of Cornwalls largest employers, the Eden Project, would not exist. Without the EU's concentration on the regions, much of the north would still only have the scars of closed mines rather than redeveloped landscapes and tourist attractions such as Beamish and so on. Similar schemes have been supported across Britain and Northern Ireland by the EU, inspite of the firmly "English Governments" based in London not because of them.

Federalism, yes even psuedo Federalism, can strengthen regions and regional identities and strengthen Nations and National identities ................... even the Scots and Welsh Nationalists recognise it. Only the that narrow clique led by Farage, Johnson, Grove and the dispicable Jacob Rees-Mogg deny it.

Chestnut Fri 04-Oct-19 16:02:51

in Britain there are so many that harbour a "Little Englander" mentality that does not allow then to even consider alliance with any other nation.
Grandad1943 - we can be part of Europe without being in the EU. And as for defence, ever heard of NATO?

GrannyGravy13 Fri 04-Oct-19 16:04:41

Grandad1943 You often bring up the "Little Englander" line and use it as an insult to those who voted leave!!!!

I am proud to be British, do not want to be in The Federal States of Europe.

The EEC was fine as it was at first, in my opinion the EU is too big, too corrupt and the many countries now members are so diverse with different religions, different economies and different way of lives for it to continue in the long run.

absthame Fri 04-Oct-19 16:17:55

GranyGravy13 The implication of your words is that our current Government is not corrupt, or not as corrupt as the EU.

That I have my doubts about when the Tories have dismantled and sold off virtually every department and agency designed to control corruption and have a total disregard of the law that interfers with whatever they want to do.

absthame Fri 04-Oct-19 16:21:50

Ps: The present government claim to be more diverse in Racial background, Religion and sexuality than any other. Maybe the EU lower levels of diversity should be more attractive to you now.