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Why are so many so scared and against Federalism?

(102 Posts)
jura2 Fri 04-Oct-19 10:31:16

Honest and open question.

The USA is made up on individual States, with their own Laws- and extremely varied in geography, culture, business, past history, and so much more. Anyone who has travelled in the USA can see that. Arizona and New Mexico are so different to, say, NY State, or Philadephia, or Vermont, etc, etc. And yet, somehow it works. Do you think the USA individual States would be more efficient and successful if they split up?

Switzerland, is too, on a different scale. 4 languages, and a definite split in historical and cultural outlook- the French and Italian speakers being so different to the German Kantons- and both sides, huge differences between larger cities like Zurich and Geneva - and the surrounding more rural regions.

Would Switzerland be more effective and sucessful if they split up in individual C/Kantons and 'regions'.

Why do people think it 'works' for the USA - but would NOT work for Europe.

GrannyGravy13 Fri 04-Oct-19 16:44:07

Absthame I obviously explained myself clumsily, I am not against diversity.

The country’s in the EU are all
governed differently, different laws, differing wage scales, different pension ages. Some have social care and free health care others do not.
To align all these “differences” for the purpose of federalism would be a red tape nightmare.

jura2 Fri 04-Oct-19 16:49:55

I would say that current Britain, and the USA - are vastly more diverse in religions and ways of life than Europe, for sure.

Grandad1943 Fri 04-Oct-19 16:51:51

GrannyGravy13, in regard to your post @16:04 today, contrary to what you have stated I do not believe I have ever used the words "Little Englanders" prior to my original post in this thread. If you can demonstrate that I have used those words "as an insult to those who voted leave" (to use your quote), please supply details of when and on what thread.

I await your evidence based reply GrannyGravy13.

Chestnut Quote [we can be part of Europe without being in the EU. And as for defence, ever heard of NATO?] End Quote.

Chestnut, when the United Kindom withdrawals from membership of the European Union we will no longer be part of its decision making process either through the European Parliament or its council(s) of ministers. We will be a third nation to that Union perhaps with a trade agreement but nothing else.

As for your remark on NATO, I certainly am aware of its existence but that defence organisation has relied on America for much of its armament and finance for a great many years.

Trump has indicated that the United States is no longer prepared to continue that level of support, and many believe that should he survive to win a second term in office he will "pull the plug" on the whole American participation in NATO.

Therefore time Europe pooled its resources and looked to form its own armed forces and that would be best accomplished through the European Union.

jura2 Fri 04-Oct-19 16:53:58

72 % of EU are some form of Christianism, Protestant, Catholics, Orthodox and other Christian minorities - many of them more passively than actively- 2 % are Muslim (the rest non religious). Compare that to UK !!!

GrannyGravy13 Fri 04-Oct-19 17:17:46

Grandad1943, in a word no......I am off to Edinburgh now and have neither the time or inclination to trawl your many "Brexit related posts"

Hetty58 Fri 04-Oct-19 17:24:10

Ask a silly question and you get a silly answer (or several)

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure you will) but a federal state shares power with the central government of the country it's in. How on Earth can you compare that to Europe? We don't live in a country called Europe!

MaizieD Fri 04-Oct-19 17:24:37

An interesting question, jura with some interesting answers.

I had typed a long response and then managed to delete it all by accident. Not trying again...

I would say, though, that I strongly suspect that the prime reason many older Leavers object to the idea of a federal Europe is that they cannot get over WW1 & WW2 and suspect the Germans of trying to conquer Europe by less obvious means than blatant militarism.

MaizieD Fri 04-Oct-19 17:27:03

'America'. Hetty is just a continent, too. Not a country.

Grandad1943 Fri 04-Oct-19 17:41:15

GrannyGravy13, in regard to your post @17:17 today.

jura2 Fri 04-Oct-19 17:47:58

Hetty58, I have read and re-read your comment- and it really does not make sense, sorry.

SueDonim Fri 04-Oct-19 21:39:59

Not everywhere in America is happy to be part of the USA. Many Californians I know would dearly love their state to be a separate country from the USA and I also know plenty of New Yorkers who'd be glad to see back of California.

I've been going regularly to the US for almost 20 years now and tbh, there isn't much variation in culture. For the most part, culturally you could be dropped anywhere in the US and you wouldn't know where you were as it would be no different from anywhere else.

jura2 Fri 04-Oct-19 21:48:44

You must see things differently. When we travelled from Phoenix via Sedona and on to the Rockies in Colorado- the differences were huge- not just geography, but culture and people too. Same when we travelled from Boston to Cape Cod and down to NY, NJ, and then the Apalachians in West Viriginia to Williamsburg- so so different. Adnwe have never been to the deep South, which is another story altogether.

All our friends in NY and California get on very well and share the same passion- and are mostly Democrats too. But ...

As said, even in a tiny country like Switzerland, the variations are huge between different towns and regions- in so so many ways. But same in France and Spain, and Italy, Germany too.

growstuff Fri 04-Oct-19 22:15:46

Don't forget that Germany is also a federation. I'm sure you're aware that "Bund" as in "Bundesrepublik" means federal.

I don't think the EU is anywhere near being a federation, not in my lifetime anyway. I'm very happy that so many of the countries of Europe have been able to co-operate for the last 70+ years. The previous 1000 years brought nothing but misery.

absthame Fri 04-Oct-19 23:14:54

Unfortunately growstuff there is little co-operation within the UK and has not been for the past 60+ years that I have seen. It seems it takes a war, when the whole nation is threatened, for the nation to really co-operate. As for the rest of the time it is those that have grabbing more than ever from those with little ........................ ohhh yes with interludes of some respite for those being trampled under the feet of the haves.

I hope and pray that our grandchildren and their children have much more thought for others than most of our generations seem to have had.

MaizieD Fri 04-Oct-19 23:45:45

Don't forget that Germany is also a federation.

Ref. my earlier post, I think that is precisely why people dislike the idea so much. It's viewed as German empire building.

janeainsworth Fri 04-Oct-19 23:56:47

We already belong to a federation. It’s called the United Kingdom of GreatBritain and Northern Ireland.
We also belong to the Commonwealth, a loose federation of mainly English-speaking people with historic ties to the U.K.
That’s quite different from forming a federation of states with a central government, with no common language.

For the record, I voted remain and would still prefer that we stayed in the European Union.

The European Union, not the European Federated States.
There’s a difference.

MaizieD Sat 05-Oct-19 00:18:47

That’s quite different from forming a federation of states with a central government, with no common language.

I suppose that was fine when England did it to Wales and Ireland?

Astonishingly, English is (or was, until we took a hissy fit) the 'common language' of the EU.

And, to revert to Jabberwok's fantasy version of the USA earlier, it was a collection of European colonies until the latter part of the 18th C and it's subsequent enlargement as a federation was not always by consensual means. And, apparently, more people speak Spanish than English there. So what 'common language'?

Like growstuff, I think that a European federation is far distant, if it happens at all. The prime use of this remote possibility as far as the UK is concerned was to frighten people into voting Leave.

Callistemon Sat 05-Oct-19 00:52:10

I agree with janeainsworth's post.

We are supposed to be in a federation but of countries, not states, of the United Kingdom. Does England have more autonomy than Scotland and Wales over it's own affairs?

We also belong to one of the most wide-reaching groups of diverse countries in the world, the Commonwea,th.

Although I voted remain, I accept the result and hope that we maintain close links with our European neighbours. We do not have to belong to have close links, as is evidenced by Switzerland and Norway, not members but still Europeans in the sense of the world.

We are European and have always been before any EU existed. That is why we defended European countries against the threat of fascism.

Callistemon Sat 05-Oct-19 00:52:55

it's not it's?!
It's early morning here.

Callistemon Sat 05-Oct-19 00:53:43

Oh, it's not me - this device keeps self-correcting.

paddyann Sat 05-Oct-19 02:09:59

England or rather Westminster has control over all parts of the DISunited kingdom.With over 80% of MP's being from England the rest of us haven't a cats chance in hell of getting our voices heard.London has more MP's than the whole of Scotland for instance .I know some will say its because of population numbers BUT MP's in London dont have constituencies of hundred of square miles or more to travel to and oversee so it is a very different thing beng an MP here .I hope ,if I was religious I would pray we get Independence within the next year .Its time we were like every other country that has control of its own affairs .The EU is not like WM,they have only a tiny % of control over things not the 80% WM has .

janeainsworth Sat 05-Oct-19 08:05:49

I suppose that was fine when England did it to Wales and Ireland

The Tudors were Welsh, weren’t they?
In any case I think what the English, or Welsh, did several hundred years ago should perhaps inform, but not determine, what the British should do in the 21st Century.

lemongrove Sat 05-Oct-19 09:56:08

Good posts Janeainsworth

lemongrove Sat 05-Oct-19 09:57:13

Also Callistemon 👍🏻

lemongrove Sat 05-Oct-19 09:58:01

Hope that your various posts answer the OP’s question.