Why are so many so scared and against Federalism?

Thanks Lemon.

lemongrove, yes, thank you to all those who have responded. It is very interesting- so keep them coming. No time to respond right now- students arriving in a mo- but will do later.

Countries are only as corrupt as those who govern them.

We may as well be joined with Europe because of the diversity we now have in this country. Why not ? This is why Leaving the EU, to me, never made any sense whatsoever as it reeks of double-standards and being two-faced.

I'm not sure that many posters have answered the first part of jura's question. Why are they scared of federalism?

Perhaps it’s because they’re not scared of Federalism, maisie and took the view that being ‘scared’ was a massive assumption on the part of jura, or perhaps it was a deliberate attempt to provoke angry responses. It’s been done before.
Being scared of something isn’t the same as having good reasons for not wanting something to happen.

The vast majority of my friends voted remain. But the consensus was that individual statehood should remain, and the idea of federalism resisted from within the EU.

You know, the time honoured phrase about pissing and tents.

Memories of the USSR maybe?! Federalism perhaps smacks of Empire building?! I think most countries want to remain as individual States, as Empire builders since the dawn of time have learnt to their cost! We certainly did

Very much what I said earlier, Jabberwok when I suggested that there might not be much appetite for federalism among the EU member states.

Yet Leavers tend to tell us that a federal Europe is round the very next corner...

Schrodingers federation, maybe?

When I was at primary school in the 50s our teachers (having just come through the war) were very much in favour of a united Europe to preserve world peace. When you look at events in the middle east and the rise of China, not to mention the current POTUS it seems an even more desirable thing to me.

Preferring option one over option two does not mean that a person is scared of option two, just that option one is preferable.

In my personal view the biggest difference between US Federalism and EU federalism is that the US system is based on Capitalism. It believes in small government and lots of individual responsibility. EU ( "European") federalism is essentially socialist/Marxist. It believes in promoting big state and government and allows for little freedom.

I suspect that in due course federal Europe will be a place where a few control all and the many have little. There will be control of both mind, economy and all areas of social discourse. It has already started on that route with a declared intention toward harmony of currency, economy, pensions, and army ..... you could continue. No freedom of speech, no freedom of movement outside the state and no choice in how to live your life. I fear that.

Aprilrose why does harmonising taxation & currency lead to no freedom of speech or movement?

I have not said that they are janeainsworth. I have just made a list of the areas where socialist EU style policies are going.

However, socialism always ends up with loss of freedoms . Free speech is usually one of the first to go and if you look around, freedom of speech has been curtailed significantly . One already has to be careful what one says. I believe many freedoms we take for granted will be gone completely shortly.

One area of significance though is currency and taxation. Once currencies are tied together across large areas, you do lose considerable economic freedom and the ability to turn a profit in capitalist terms. That affects prosperity for all. For most ordinary people it means a downward spiral to the lowest common denominator in terms of income and life comforts ( even life basics).

april if you look around, freedom of speech has been curtailed significantly

In the UK freedom of speech is curtailed only to the extent that it is illegal to say or publish anything that could be judged to incite hatred or violence.
Do you think those laws should be repealed?
It’s not illegal to disagree with anyone, and it’s not illegal to offend them, either.

Goodness me, aprilrose!!

Most anti-EU people portray it as a capitalist institution intent on reducing us all to serfdom...

I don't believe that the EU is anywhere near the kind of federalist state which the US is.

Co-operation on taxation makes sense in a globalised economy, if individual states are to stand any chance of cutting down on tax evasion.

The UK is under no obligation to join the Eurozone. It also has a veto on military policy, so could never be forced into conscription into an EU army. To me, it makes sense for the EU to co-operate on defence policy anyway, just as we co-operate on police matters, but that doesn't mean that there will be a single EU army.

aprilrose I'd be interested to know in what way you think free speech has been significantly curtailed. In the UK, this current Conservative government has "gagged" a number of organisations, including charities, the NHS and scientists/researchers, but they could hardly be called socialist.

Marx would be turning in his grave to hear the EU described as Marxist. Marxists are generally against the EU because they see it as a capitalist conglomerate. I am struggling to think of any country in the world which doesn't have some degree of capitalism, so I can't agree that the US is based on capitalism while the EU is based on socialism/Marxism. There are elements in both in all our countries.

I really don't agree that that the EU/Europe is heading towards being a federalist super-state. I see individual sovereign countries working together in a way which would have been unthinkable 100 years ago.

Spot on janeainsworth. An individual has the right to be as offensive as they like, as long they don't incite hatred or violence and don't break any specific laws, such as those surrounding employment and the provision of public services. Other people also have a right to challenge an individual with views they find offensive.

Do you think those laws should be repealed?

Actually I would. I believe in having freedoms. I am a strong libertarian. One of the most important in any society is the freedom to think and say what you want. I may not agree with what people say but I will always defend their right to say it ( as the saying goes).

Now that may be unpalatable to some here but it is my view and you asked me for my view.

Unfortunately our laws concerning hatred and incitement to violence are increasingly being used to stop people being offended by others views. That is what I do not like.

grwostuff - I do not believe there is a great deal of difference now between the Conservatives and the rest of the liberal/socialist left wing in political terms.

Real Conservatism is lost for the duration.

Well jane, I had a post deleted yesterday because I simply said 'I am disappointed'- not how much hatred and incitment to violence were involved here?

So many comments- can't possibly respond to all.

But yes, I fear many have a very distorted and negative view of Europe. Whereas others see it as a magnificent opportunity for cooperation in a 1000 of ways, from research to fighting terrorism and crime, a great opportunity to unite and support each other in case of economic or other kinds or turmoils, to jointly fight for a better environment, for freedom of movement, and so much more.

aprilrose 'I suspect that in due course federal Europe will be a place where a few control all and the many have little. There will be control of both mind, economy and all areas of social discourse. It has already started on that route with a declared intention toward harmony of currency, economy, pensions, and army ..... you could continue. No freedom of speech, no freedom of movement outside the state and no choice in how to live your life. I fear that.'

I am truly amazed at how you come to those alarmist conclusions - especially the last part about freedom of speech, freedom of movement (which Brexit will certainly result in)... no choice in how to live your life ?!? How? But mainly, where do you get those fears, from what sources?

Starting at the beginning I think the UK (I believe that's Great Britain plus Northern Ireland) should comprise federalised states. The countries within the UK certainly have no sense of equality currently. The biggest problem, as I see it, is that we have little sense of Englishness. The English do not have a separate capital or assembly (by any name). It may even be that the north and south need to each be "states" in the United Kingdom.

I actually think the lack of an a sense of Englishness is one of the underlying issues that led to the leave vote. After all, all the other countries voted or now want to remain in the EU - this may indicate their problems are with the "English" rather than the EU.

How we can expect to sort out issues with being part or not of either an EU federal system or an EU trading block is beyond me when we have so much to sort out at home.

jura Well jane, I had a post deleted yesterday because I simply said 'I am disappointed'- not how much hatred and incitment to violence were involved here (sic)
I didn’t see your post before it was deleted.
But you can hardly equate the whims of the Gransnet moderators with the law of the land, can you?

April Have I got this right? You want laws repealed that make it illegal to spew forth anti-Semitic, islamophobic, homophobic bile on social media, in the newspapers, and on street corners?
You really think that sort of thing is ok?
You don’t think allowing it would be a dangerous step along the road to fascism?

Harmony of currency does make trade easier - however, I am not sorry that we did not join the euro.