Am I the only one

I'd like to go into the Houses of Parliament and bang all their heads together - oh wait would I be abusing them ????

aprilrose - very sad to hear you are so deeply affected. I agree Brexit was handled badly from the start. If remainers had come on board and accepted the result we could have all worked together to get it done in a year. Instead they have fought tooth and nail to stop it happening and that is what has caused so much division and hatred. Leavers have been vilified and as you say accused of ignorance, so they have had to fight back simply to get the result of a democratic vote carried out.

@aprilrose Brexit can be blamed for many things, but surely not your marriage problems?

My goodness me! I am astounded. Talk about escalation of a an issue? Where did I comment I had marriage problems?
I simply stated that my husband and I disagree on this one matter. He has made a comment to me. I have argued back. he has flung a few insults. I have refused to cook his meal.

Things will blow over when he tells me he is sorry and I lose my anger at him. We will then agree not to discuss the matter further and we will keep our opinions to ourselves. Thats the way things work out.

Many domestic disputes may go the way but we usually make up. Only when one side cannot. It does not mean we are having "marriage problems". We are not. We are simply disagreeing over a particular issue.

That is really what should have happened with Brexit. The leavers won. Remainers should have complained - they have that right but they do not have a right to hijack the decision. Then we all say sorry and all is forgotten..... but rrmainers will not say sorry and give up and therein lies the " Marriage problem" in this country.

I am disgusted with your comment and your assumptions. Your comment is unspeakably arrogant in my opinion.

^aprilrose: "They would have expected me to accept it had things been reversed."
Farage was all ready to demand a re-run straight away if it had been as close the other way. After 3 1/2 years, the damage leaving will do has become evident.^

He would not have been given it, just as remain minded people have not been given it - nor should they. To request / demand etc is one thing. To overturn a democratic decision is another, no matter how you might not like it.

Normally our parliament would recognise the decision and move accordingly, not spend nearly four years trying to stop it. I don't think many remain minded people realise how much anger there is outside of their tiny little bubbles such as this forum. Say too much here as a leave voter and you get banned. I have seen it happen.

Concern for my family is my priority

That is my priority too. I think I have explained elsewhere how being in the EU has affected the area I live in and how that was responsible for the vote to leave - which was significantly higher where I live than taken overall. There is considerable anger and bitterness where I live. The anger does boil over but the national press ignore it.

Geminigran- that's exactly what I said last night!

Well I for one wish it was over and we can start picking up the pieces, because there will be many pieces and a great deal of fallout. I am a remainer but realise Brexit has to happen so why can't they have a cross party committee to sort this mess out and get the best possible terms.

@aprilrose I certainly did not mean to offend you, and my profound apologies if I have done so.

I obviously misinterpreted your post, but you sounded so angry and bitter. You referred to the comments which your husband had made, including 'thick' and 'stupid', and said that you would not forgive him. It did not sound like a light hearted post and, if my husband were to make such remarks to me, then I would not consider that our relationship had much of a future. However, only those in a marriage know the true situation and I am sorry if I misunderstood.

I find it morbidly fascinating.

I am astounded that family and friends have fallen out

We have both Leavers and Remainers in our family and friend circle.

Not one fall out

I think social media has a lot to answer for. Whipping people up into a frenzy.

I do notice though that most people I bump into mostly appear disinterested in it all.

It's only forums like this where it all appears to be manic

I find it rather worrying that the biggest decision taken by a country in my lifetime [along with the Iraq War] just leaves people 'disinterested'.

Aprilrose: It has been made a very big deal when it should have been simply done and then we would have got back to normal.

But, Aprilrose, it is a very big deal. People's lives have already been affected and will continue to be so. I don't believe all leavers have been called ignorant. However, we have heard some leave voters give reasons for wanting to leave the EU that, quite frankly, have been based on ignorance or let's call it lack of knowledge and understanding. It wouldn't be so bad if only they would be affected by Brexit but they are dragging a whole nation with them. So remainers are understandably angry.

A guest on the Andrew Marr show likened the Brexit fatigue to the feeling so many of us have towards the end of pregnancy: ”I just want to get it done and over with so I can get some sleep and get back to normal.”

Like everyone else am tired of hearing about Brexit and can see the arguing about it lasting a long time.

Greta I totally agree with you. The leavers expected the rest of us to leave the life that we knew for an unknown life so it's not surprising that we remainers are angry.

When we joined the EU the negotiations had been carried out, the results were presented to us and we then had a vote whether to accept or not. Since then people like Farage (MEP since 1999) have been fighting to leave using lies and misinformation to further their cause.

I don't believe all leavers have been called ignorant. However, we have heard some leave voters give reasons for wanting to leave the EU that, quite frankly, have been based on ignorance or let's call it lack of knowledge and understanding

So there comes the insults again. Ignorant - no matter how you word it. The underpinning belief is that somehow remainers have the monopoly on understanding. They may not have. They do not know. It is based on their beliefs and experiences. It is almost a religion with them like extinction rebellion is to GT and friends.

That is my opinion. I have heard comments such as this made so often I now ignore them. I have tried discussing it reasonably and it always ends up with the same comment being returned ( as above).

There is a reality here - more than half the country have not benefited from 45 years in the EU and want to leave. The others want to stay because they fear they will lose their advantage and benefit which has been gained from being in the EU. It is the same old argument with a different focus.

aprilrose Sun 20-Oct-19 09:25:16 My experience has been very different to yours. I have been called all sorts of things my leavers because I continually ask the question "please tell me 3 ways you and your family will be better off if we leave the EU". Not one person has given me an answer, just called me nasty names.

We have a couple of friends who feel differently to us although the vast majority agree that leaving the EU will be a catastrophe for the UK. We haven't fallen out with any of them. One couple don't talk about it but one friend and I had a really sensible discussion where we both retained our views. No need to fall out just because we see things differently.

Chestnut Sun 20-Oct-19 10:02:05 I disagree because we all have the right to oppose something we believe is fundamentally wrong. If Hitler had been opposed by more people things could have been very different. "All it takes for evil to prosper is for good people to do nothing". If you look at the crowds in London yesterday it will be obvious there is a very strong feeling out there. Now is the time to bring back democracy, we know what the offer really is and should have the opportunity to tell parliament what people want now.

totally fed up to the back teeth of brexit but one thing it has shown me is how much the so called members of parliament are in it for them selves, total liars, lazy good for nothings, get us left and back to being the uk.

aprilrose Sun 20-Oct-19 11:29:26 the word was 'some'. Why do you take that so personally? It really is not good for your cause to take that as an insult.

I too am heartily sick of it, I think the whole of Parliament is behaving disgracefully, and I’m not sure I will ever vote again.

I am a remainer, my best friend voted to leave, it has not, and never would come between us, we’ve had discussions, and agreed to disagree, although in my opinion, whether I liked the outcome of the referendum, or not, we voted to leave, so leave we must.

Aprilrose, if my husband ever called me thick or stupid, it would probably be the end of a long and mostly happy marriage.

"Lack of understanding" does not equal stupid, thick or ignorant! Stop being defensive over a non-insult.
It simply means that the likely outcome of voting to leave was not made clear ( not even the facts that were known at the time).
Since the vote, more and more disturbing information has been revealed and it has taken time for all of us to understand the implications. There's no shame in saying that a change in knowledge may well justify a change of mind or of vote.

Had the "new" information shown me that the NHS would be safe, that we wouldn't be in thrall to Trump, that the whole move to brexit wasn't being manipulated by self-serving billionaires, that we weren't being led by a petulant fool acting like a stroppy toddler who wants his own way to the detriment of everyone else THEN with that assurance I would have (reluctantly) accepted a controlled, fair brexit

But now, knowing of the crisis being brought about in NI, of the iffy trade deals in the offing, of the lack of educational opportunities for our young folk, plus all the other dire situations we're likely to face (and that's even with a deal) I cannot see why, like many who have bravely admitted that they'd vote Remain if given the chance, that posters here are so determined.

Determined to do what?
Take back sovereignty? Send home immigrants who 'take our jobs'? Make Britain great again?Pass our own laws? All these points have been given as reasons to leave and time after time have been proved to be nonsense.
So please put me right and explain why my reasons for wanting to remain are so wrong.
Please also explain why I should change my mind and vote leave in the next referendum.

Interesting article here from Lord Mervyn King, ex Bank of England boss

news.sky.com/story/ex-bank-of-england-boss-uk-is-neglecting-deep-problems-with-economy-11840141

mcem Sun 20-Oct-19 12:20:28 good post

Thank nonnie.
Would just like to add that I am genuinely ready to read explanations from leavers.
If there are sympathetic leavers on here who are willing to post then maybe they could see it as reassuring us that we really will be ok post-brexit (with or without a deal).

I think we will never get back to ‘normal’ whatever that is. This issue has divided society, including families, and many people seem to have become more intolerant of others’ opinions. The aggression shown towards people with an opposite view and to MPs is shocking and it seems to be spilling over into sport where racism towards footballers is on the increase. The aggression seems to be a symptom of people’s anxiety over many issues including the environment, job security, health care, worries about poverty, housing and their children’s future. IMHO the intolerance will escalate if we have a second referendum.

Aprilrose I’m sorry this is causing you such problems, nobody should have to put up with insults, especially from a partner. I’m afraid I would lose respect for my DH if he behaved in this way. My parents always had different political views, my mother always voted Labour whereas my father always voted Conservative yet they had a very happy marriage, yes they had discussions about politics but always respected each other’s different views and rarely had a cross word.

aprilrose Sun 20-Oct-19 11:29:26 the word was 'some'. Why do you take that so personally? It really is not good for your cause to take that as an insult

..... ( never start a sentence with because ..... because "Some" is a word that people in groups like this use in order to make their comments without getting into hot water when someone comes back and says " not me". I have seen it often. They really mean in their opinion "all" but its the way things are supposed to be said . Now of course they will come back and say that I am wrong. But I have my opinion and its has been my experience. The words "some", "many" "most" " a significant proportion" , etc. is over used, especially in debates like this.

In the same way as some ( one?) has asked for three reasons my family might benefit from leaving the EU. I have asked for three reasons MY family would benefit from staying. I received no answers either.

I have seen reasons for staying but none have ever applied to my family.

In the past, before the EU, those of us losing out would have had a voice heard by the government ( our government) and a little process called compromise would have taken place.

The goverment would have heard the discontent and moved to make sure enough people were given a crumb or two of cake in some way to ensure that the direction they wished to take would be the one accepted ( if not condoned) by all. There would have been a bit of give and take.

Since the EU there has been no such give and take, mainly because there are too many other factions and the EU rules have denied governments the ability to act with sufficient autonomy. Some -one of those words again- countries ignore those EU rules but Britain does not. if we ignored the rules as others have done, the result of the referendum may well have gone in remains favour. But there was a misjudgment of how many were not benefiting. Polls do not show you that. Back in 2016, the government of the day , which is more or less exactly the same one as today, took a gamble that more people had benefited from being in the EU and so would vote remain than those who had not and would vote leave.

They got it wrong. They got it wrong because they had failed to realise how successive directives and rules implemented in this country had left a majority at a disadvantage. That is why they were angry. I will never forget the media pictures of Camerons face. The anger was palpable. But they got it wrong and have not changed anything to change the minds of leave voters. The problem is that the media, the government and the remain minded want to think otherwise and keep trying to make it look as though leave voters have not understood.

Well, I for one, have understood alright. I know what the EU has cost me and my family - and my husband although he is afraid to admit it, hence he calls me thick or stupid when I point it out to him. He is simply afraid. He wants me to agree because he cannot admit the facts in our own family case. he knows what happened . he just needs reminding every now and then. The media whip him up and he gets frightened. I think that happens in a lot of cases with remain minded. But that is just my opinion.

I might add, dislike of the EU is not just a British thing. There are many other countries having the same issues and problems with large factions wanting a similar opportunity to remove themselves from the EU. That is something remain minded people ignore - along with most ( thats that word again) other things.