For Remainers Only

Ps I don't know were providers came from and should not have been there. SORRY

absthame; And, if Brexit isn't as catastrophic as some of us think it will be, it will only be because so many people have fought long and hard to challenge this awful government every step of the way [and are still doing so...].

I know. I really like it.

Last to BoB.

The machines are taking over absthame

Awww, Labaik. Love the picture of your pup!

Have you seen the pictures of the Whippets for Europe group in their little coats?

Labaik, yes, this picture accompanied an article in the Washington Post on Saturday.

GracesGranMK3 I've spent all of my working life developing machines and solutions, generally involving computers,that reduced work; so yes for many machines have taken over, for others they have to face the prospects.

People like me hoped against hope that governments would improve social conditions such that the necessary changes would be used to improve the lot of most in society. Instead society has been exploited even more thanks to upper and middle class amoral politicians like Johnson, May, Thatcher etc

Now we are entering a new era with AI being used more and more to oppress the oppressed, be it by the abuse of say facial recognition systems, by the use of group and personal profiling or the development of weapons that autonomously select and destroy targets, be they persons, vehicles, buildings or whatever. Even market movements are being determined by such AI systems.

So yes your quip about machines taking over is far truer and closer than probably you or most realise.

Our hope must be that politicians seeking greater equality and social justice are the ones who manage to gain political power. Else God help us all and I pray it/he/she will.

I agree with you absthame. Long term, it worries me that so many have a Luddite mentality. Most people act in their personal interest. Some people will exploit AI for their personal gain, while others will seek to protect jobs, even if those jobs aren't efficient. Most people are partisan and don't look at the bigger picture.

We really do need some wise people to look at the lessons of history and mitigate the disadvantages of AI, so that everybody benefits in the long term. I really don't see any of those in power having the necessary wisdom and foresight.

Politicians seeking greater equality and social justice will never gain political power in a democracy while the majority (even if it's a very small majority) perceive that they are doing well - even if it's only a perception rather than a real advantage.

Thatcher and Blair knew that very well, which is why they reached out to those in the middle, who didn't much care about those below them in the social heap as long as they felt themselves to be doing OK.

I cannot believe some people actually believe the abundant "Drivel" that is posted on the leaver's thread

One forum member actually believes that large manufacturers will come to set up operations in Britain following Brexit.

However, it eludes those on that thread that Britain is moving out of an open market of four hundred and eighty million people and will become a closed market of sixty eight million people.

Now, if any forum member here were planning to set up a manufacturing business in the European Continent which market would you opt to open that operation in?

Labaik:" if Brexit isn't as catastrophic as some of us think it will be, it will only be because so many people have fought long and hard to challenge this awful government every step of the way [and are still doing so...]."

Reminds me of the millennium bug. There are still people saying it was a lot of fuss over nothing because there was no disruption. Which is very insulting to the thousands of people like me who spent three+ years making sure it was fixed in time :-(

Good morning.

What always amazes me growstuff is that people with very little "wealth" vote for parties who are, basically, determined to take it off them. You wonder how they would react to a spam phonecall or a flyer saying:

"Vote for us. You will end up paying into an insurance company for your health care. The owners and shareholders of such companies will become richer and richer as the cost of medical care, provided by private companies goes up which is only right. They are good people.

You are likely to find that you cannot afford personal care but we know your offspring will give up their lives, homes and future pensions in order to look after you.

Be prepared to work 'till you drop and in circumstances that remind you of a Victorian workplace.

Obviously, if you are super-rich you will just get richer by letting your money rather than you do the work. We guarantee you will always earn more from money than you do from working.

We will throw you the things you think you want. Longer sentences to fill our prisons even more and we will continue to be the country in Europe that send more people, for longer to prison. We obviously have more wicked people in this country than anywhere else.

We will put more policemen on the street but, once back in power we will make the money for this come out of an ever reducing budget, just as we have since we first got into power. By reducing the size of the state in this way we will be able to give more tax cuts to the extremely rich and the largest companies. We really don't think we should do anything to help small companies as they are good advertising for this countries entrepreneurial spirit.

This country will Brexit in the harshest way possible as we move towards the standards of the USA in our equality of lack of opportunity outlook.

The foodbanks and homeless hostels will flourish and, as long as you can show someone who believes in a just society, where any fall to the bottom is seen as your own fault, that you are deserving, there will be a charity to help you help the consciences of the mega-wealthy."

All this comes to you with a free polling card which means you can claim this special offer. This is subject to identity card status as you are obviously a wrong'un if you don't have one and we are seeking to cleanse society of the 'unfit'."

Yggdrasil has brought up something that always intrigued me but I’ve never heard the answer. I appreciate that many computer experts worked hard for many years fixing the millennium bug but who allowed it to happen in the first place? Surely they knew 1999 would change to 2000 at midnight on the 31st December?

One forum member actually believes that large manufacturers will come to set up operations in Britain following Brexit.

One forum member on there actually thinks Speaker Bercow will be involved with the next stages of the Brexit Bill so has seen fit to denigrate him yet again. I expect they will do the same when they see it is usually the Chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, in this case, Sir Lindsay Hoyle, who decides what amendments can be debated. The speaker is not likely to be involved.

Sadly, you are talking to people who abhor knowledge. Remember right-wing revolutions usually shoot the teachers and lawyers first. They only believe in faith. In another century they would be asking for burning pyres to cleans our souls for being non-believers.

It's quite horrifying to see all this happening again when the far-right get a hold but it's pleasant on here and I shall just ignore any "believers" who try to upset that fact.

Sorry, that was a reply to Grandad.

What GGM3 fails to realise is that Brexit and anyone who supports it ( quite a few!) are not all right wing, or even Conservative voters at all.

‘It’s pleasant on here’ !! ?

I am wondering just how long it will take for the leave voters to realise we haven't left yet and if Johnson has his way, we will not as he has been angling all along for a GE where he can present himself as the Leader of the Faithful.

I have just looked on the Only Leave Pensioners Forum I study and it seems they, like our leavers, are waiting to be told what to say by the press. They are attacking Francis O'Grady at the moment - back to sexism and racism as usual.

yygdrasil yes, there was hard work put in to make sure the year 2000 ( in computer terms) didn’t cause problems, the work was done and all went well.In the event of a no deal then there has been work put in place to minimise any disruption there as well, although I don’t think a no deal will happen now.

Why study a ‘Only Leave Pensioners Forum’ when you are a Remainer.....it smacks of liking the hair shirt.

We haven’t left yet, but after last night.....we are on the way.

How is everyone feeling this morning? I'm actually feeling quite positive [unusual for me!!] in that the stalemate couldn't go on forever and now, hopefully, every aspect of Brexit will be thoroughly scrutinised [something that should have happened before the referendum].

PM is shaking the UK to its foundations

by David Hannay | 23.10.2019

Few aspects of the Brexit saga are more counter-intuitive than the way three successive leaders of the Conservative and Unionist Party should have acted in a manner which is shaking the union of the U.K. to its foundations.

David Cameron, by holding a referendum so soon after a narrow escape in the Scottish independence vote, which was certain , whatever the overall outcome, to pit the four nations of our union against one another; Theresa May by deciding at the outset, and without any prior consultation with the devolved institutions to quit the EU’s customs union and its single market, thus greatly accentuating the damage that would be caused by Brexit in any case; and now Boris Johnson by doing a deal which would involve installing a customs border arrangements between Great Britain and Northern Ireland of a kind which both his predecessor and he himself had said could not be contemplated by any British Prime Minister.

Bad enough, you might think, but worse still when you look at the detail.

Northern Ireland is to be saddled with an import regime of extraordinary complexity for goods coming from Great Britain or from other countries outside the EU with tariffs having to be paid upfront and not reimbursed until it was certain that they were not going through a duty free backdoor into the EU (and all this controlled by European institutions in which they would have no representation). This will inevitably impose substantial costs on businesses in the province.

It is hard to believe that these new arrangements will not, as Jonathan Powell who played a key role in negotiating the Good Friday Agreement , has pointed out act as a steadily increasing incentive for the province to become part of, and not just a quasi-colony of, the EU, in which they voted to remain in the first place.

For Scotland, the equation is even worse, despite the fact that they voted to remain in the EU by an even larger majority than Northern Ireland. They will have access to none of the provisions thrashed out for Northern Ireland and will, in terms of their future trade access to the EU be entirely dependent on whatever future deal the government in London May negotiate with the EU – and that government could well turn out to value regulatory independence higher than frictionless trade. Is it surprising that support for Scottish independence was on the rise even before the terms of Johnson’s deal were known?

And Wales, which did vote, narrowly, to leave is equally, like Scotland being discriminated against when you compare their position with the Northern Ireland deal.

This really is a topsy turvy outcome which the Parliament of our union is being pressed to accept. If that union is, as Theresa May so frequently said, precious, as it certainly is to many of us, then the simplest way to strengthen it is to d3cide to remain in the EU or, less conclusively, at least to negotiate a customs union with the rest of the EU.

Long, but worrying article about current 'reporting' on Brexit. By Peter Oborne

...there is now clear evidence that the prime minister has debauched Downing Street by using the power of his office to spread propaganda and fake news. British political journalists have got chillingly close to providing the same service to Boris Johnson that Fox News delivers for Donald Trump.

www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/british-journalists-have-become-part-of-johnsons-fake-news-machine/

Like you Labaik, not at all bad. Either we actually get the scrutiny of the deal which, as you say, should have been done long ago or we get a GE. I must admit I would like them to have to take this deal through parliament first, at least until we see the flaws in it as there are so many - as you article highlights WW

PMQ's could be interesting ... or sadly, not but just more of Johnson blaming anyone but the guy in charge.