Can anyone apart from the elite, say what they want from Brexit

Thank you lemongrove well said.

I am beginning to loathe these bloody labels.....Leaver and Remainer.

How about a Fedupper?

Yes; I await a valid comment from someone who voted Brexit. I really would value a point by point comment from a leaver about what they wanted from brexit, at the time of the referendum ,what they now want from Brexit and how much of that is in Johnsons deal.

That's what really gets me Tricia. I really do accept that some areas of the country and some people have had a bad deal over the last few years. Some criticism of the EU is valid, but the EU has become a convenient scapegoat (along with immigrants, Muslims, single mothers, health tourists, benefit scroungers, political correctness, health & safety regs, anybody/anything else who can be blamed …) The big question, however, is how leaving the EU will make life any better, especially in former industrial areas. After three and a half years nobody has come up with an answer to that one.

Labaik I read somewhere that 44% of the people who think Johnson's deal is better than May's deal don't even know what's in the deal.

I hope you're not putting else on hold while you wait for any kind of answer.

Ha ha grapefruitpip - I’m definitely in your group!

The remainers go on and on about the brexiters harping back to the war but they don’t see the irony of them harping back to the referendum three and a half years ago!

trisher ...nobody without a crystal ball can say with certainty what will happen at any time, but the hope is that
Life will get better, particularly for the lower paid in the UK when we are out of the EU.It will take time, I accept that, no easy fixes or unicorns, but since this is the biggest change in our country since we entered the EU, it will be worth it in the end. We can throw out a government that we don’t like every five years ( at the moment) but cannot control the EU.
Stopping freedom of movement and going over to a points based system will help enormously in keeping wages higher, and striking trade deals where the UK wants to.Eventually all countries in the EU will have to go over to the euro ( we wouldn’t be able to stay out of that choice IMHO.)
We wouldn’t be waiting for EU handouts from our own money sent there, and will be able to direct our own money where we will.
For me, that all equals ‘better’.

Well said Lemongrove.

If the vote had gone the other way I don’t think that Leavers would have kept up a continuous barrage of vile and abusive condemnation of people who exercised their democratic right to vote.

The massive number of immigrants in our area have kept wages artificially low because they will tolerate living conditions that come from a bygone era. They are crowded into rented houses and several people take turns to sleep in the same bed. The landlords, often immigrants themselves, rent out mattresses in mouldy basements with no windows and even cover the back garden with flimsy sheds. The often illegal immigrants are totally trapped and often work for far less than the minimum wage, most of which goes back to the landlords for rent and loan repayments.

My OH was posting leaflets promoting his business and was carrying them in a briefcase. The door of a rundown house opened and a long stream of panic stricken young men charged past him. They assumed he was some kind of official probably because he was wearing a suit and carrying said briefcase.

Easy for the tea-time Trotsky’s to sit in their comfortable homes in tree lined avenues and pontificate and pass cruel and unfair judgement on their fellow countrymen whilst many Locally born young people will suffer from the artificially low wages in the black economy and see no likelihood of buying or even renting a home of their own.

Most decent people recognise that there are two sides to every issue and respect the fact that others are perfectly entitled to vote as they see fit. I am sure that there are any number of remain voters who did so purely because it benefited themselves or their family which is their democratic right.

If the Remainers want to vent their spleen on other people perhaps they should take issue with the young people who couldn’t be arsed to get themselves to the polling stations!

I and many others on GN have said similar things for the last few years but have grown weary of the repeating/ demands etc since then.
We all voted the way we voted on all sides....the highly educated, the poorly educated, the intelligent and the not so,
The young, the middle aged and the old, those living in poor areas, those living in well off areas, those who vote Labour, those who vote Conservative, those who vote Lib Dem/other.
In short, we all voted the way we thought was best for our country, end of!
The hate/ anger/ dislike must stop ( when directed at voters and not just politicians.)
It’s particularly awful on sites like this one.....older people against other older people, mainly women.
Save your ire for those in Parliament that you disagree with.

What's a tea time Trotsky please?

Is it a new biscuit?

But al of this is what 'might' happen. You're talking as if it is cast in stone that it will. What guarantees can you give thatyou are correct. And what makes you so certain that everyone will have to join the euro? Isn't it all a bit hypothetical on your part? If I want my country to changes in such a dramatic way I would like a bit more certainty about it. And can you be certain that 'the troubles' won't start up again.

You can’t be certain of anything in this life Labaik ( except for death and taxes) or of anything if we had stayed in the EU as time goes on.What we could control though is what happens in our own country.

grapefruitpip I think it's probably me. But if so I want to know why I've been down graded from a champagne socialist !! (although I don't mind being a tea-time Trotsky if there is cake),
So one of the arguments being suggested is that wages will improve because there will be no immigrants, at the same time we will lose the protection of EU law which has already outlawed zero hours contracts. UK legislation is not as rigorous as theirs. It will mean a race to the bottom.

no immigrants? Oh the hilarity. Possibly less educated ( let's face it white ) immigrants ,and more poorer non EU immigrants?

I'm always amazed at this assertion that wages will improve once we're out of the EU. Why would that be?

Studies have shown that the only effect that EU workers have had on wages is to keep the very lowest wages lower by a few pence than they might have been without the EU workers.

fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-jobs-labour-market-effects-immigration/?utm_source=content_page&utm_medium=related_content

I realise that the Posted Workers directive has been blamed for past discrepancies in wages but that's set to change:

ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?langId=en&catId=89&newsId=2488&furtherNews=yes

Why, when wages have been held down by tory austerity for the past decade, does anyone believe that leaving the EU will make any difference? We'll just ship workers in from the rest of the world and pay them as little as we can get away with...

Don't think a points system will do anything to change this. We have a shrinking workforce. We need immigrants.

Vile and abusive? Really?

When people come out with accusations like that, I don't see there's anything to do except laugh.

I don't want 'coulds' I want 'woulds'. Anyone can put forward an argument saying 'could'....

That's happened before the referendum. Some people said we could have a Norwegian type deal; others a Swiss type deal; others didn't have a clue, but just hated Tusk and/or furinners.

We could have a points based immigration system or none at all.

We could spend the money from the side of the bus on this, that and everything (a bit like a child with its Christmas money).

I find it stunning that people still haven't grasped the realities.

trisher Mon 28-Oct-19 13:17:05 I agree its the same old same old remainers are wrong be we are not going to tell you why.

Labaik Mon 28-Oct-19 13:30:10 yes, that is what I think the OP asked for but I doubt you will get it. I've been asking for 3+ years and keep being told I have had an answer but I haven't. I've been told to 'look it up' and I have tried time and again but cannot find anything. At least on here they are only a little bit unpleasant on Twitter some of the comments are not only illiterate and illogical they are also downright rude! I really do not understand why someone can have a strong opinion, come on a thread like this, be confrontational and not give their opinion. Quite beyond me.

growstuff Mon 28-Oct-19 13:31:52 yes, I think you are right. I have read many who seem to have voted against the EU rather than for anything. I say again, EU is not perfect but if you produce a balance sheet for being in or leaving it is patently obvious that staying in is better for us.

lemongrove Mon 28-Oct-19 13:36:18 please explain why you believe that "Life will get better, particularly for the lower paid in the UK when we are out of the EU.It will take time," How will that be achieved?

How do you think we will get better trade deals than we already have with the EY and the 70+ countries we have deals with as part of our membership?

Do you have evidence that we will have to join the EU? I have seen that said but no one has ever been able to substantiate it. No it isn't in the Lisbon Treaty.

Sussexborn Mon 28-Oct-19 13:46:36 I am a loss to know where you think the "continuous barrage of vile and abusive condemnation of people who exercised their democratic right to vote." comes from as I haven't seen it. Yes, I have seen some opinions that leave voters were mistaken, didn't understand the consequences, all voted for different types of Brexit, were conned by liars etc. but is that 'vile and abusive'? On the contrary I have been very abused on Twitter by leavers and I mean very!

What have you done about the illegal immigrants? Surely you don't just let it go on without doing something?

You mention young people twice are the ones who didn't vote the same ones who can't get good jobs? Perhaps they could pick some of the apples left rotting on the ground because we cannot get anyone to pick them now that the seasonal workers have abandoned us.

I agree there are two sides but I would like to know what the other side feels and why they believe they would be better off outside the EU. We won't know why we are wrong if no one will tell us.

lemongrove Mon 28-Oct-19 14:01:28 you are right, things could change in the EU but should we leave no because they might at some point in the future? If it were obvious to us all that being in the EU was really bad for us it would be a simple matter to agree to leave. It is not at this point which is why it has taken so long for nothing to happen.

I see no barrage, only biscuits. Are we still allowed Bourbon?

The constant demands for proof of what is going to happen in the future is pointless bordering on ridiculous. Particularly from those who are doing their level best to talk up failure just so they can self righteously gloat. Who knows what may or may not happen in the future? Who knew that Volkswagen/Renault were lying about their emissions and cheating the vehicle buying public? Who would have imagined the German economy would be teetering on the edge of recession? All we can do is think carefully and reach our own decision.

There would definitely be cake for the tea time Trotskies! There might even be cucumber sandwiches with the crusts removed. Whoever heard of afternoon tea with no cake?

I first heard the expression from one of the dads at my children’s London school. He was fed up with the parents who claimed to be socialists but looked down their noses at him because he was a plumber. He overheard one of the most ardent socialists expressing surprise that his son had won a scholarship to Dulwich College because he was a “plumbers son”. Needless to say this person then paid for her son to go privately elsewhere so he didn’t need to mix with the hoi polloi at the local comprehensive.

We all have different life experiences that come to bear on making important decisions and it is insulting when people assume that others are ignorant and stupid if they don’t reach the same conclusion.