Grenfell Tower Inquiry Report

suzie I looked up some details of the fire service pension. Cotton would still be on an older scheme which was based on final salary.

PS. I have two public service pensions. One started when I was 60 because of my start date and the other won't start paying out until I'm 65 because it's a separate scheme with a later start date. You're right about not having a "pension pot" and Cotton's already having the maximum number of years of service. The stuff about her pension is straight out of the tabloid smear machine.

In regard to forum members that have stated that the Grenfell tragedy could and should have been foreseen then that is very true. However, prior to the changes to industrial and workplace safety legislation which commenced in 2012, many products used in Building and other industries had to be safety assessed by the Health & Safety executive or an independent assessment organisation appointed by them.

Those assessments would include such statistics as combustion resistance and combustion temperatures when ignited and much else that would bear reference to any products predicted use. Those assessments could then form the basis of a broader risk assessment that would be carried out on the materials to be used in any development or process.

However, the changes that were brought forward in 2012 and since passed the responsibility for product safety away from the H&S Executive and placed that in the hands of the producers and users of products, therefore, creating widespread "self-assessment certification" in many industries.

What those product safety self-assessments actually stated in terms of Grenfell Tower will be disclosed in the second phase of the inquiry. That stated, one thing is already very clear, that being, the risk assessments that were produced on the basis of the products used in the Grenfell Tower upgrade refurbishment were not worth the paper they were written on.

In terms of Dany Cottons actions on the night of the disaster, had she possessed a dynamic risk assessment which contained any worthwhile information then the safety properties of the cladding and fixings that surrounding that cladding would have been available to her. As it was on that night Dany Cotton did not have such information available to her and therefore on arrival at the fire scene Cotton found herself witnessing something which under current legislation and practice could not happen.

That I feel undoubtedly bore great relevance to the decisions she made in regard to the tragedy on that appalling night.

Grandad I'm not going to get involved in "trial by internet". I'm not disputing what you say and I've read similar observations.

Like many people, I've seen the video of Johnson telling the London Assembly member, who raised concerns about fire service funding, to "get stuffed".

Please is there a link to this?

growstuff, I do appreciate what you have stated in this thread, and my above post was in no way intended to include you in the "trial by media" that some are "dishing out" in regard to the Grenfell tragedy at present.

Hope you did not think that was what I was doing.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN3e-aYUusc

Here you are grape

Thank you for the link. People over use certain words but my God, that's appalling.

I am unsure whether the makers of the cladding should have provided a warning, or even refused the job as they should have known that it was not suitable for tower blocks. I believe that this was said just after the fire.

I don't think I am doing a trial by internet. I am writing of my thoughts at the time and I cannot bear to see fingers pointing at the Fire Service. The very people who risk their lives to save others.

this was a unique situation and I don't want to use hindsight either.

The enquiry I hope looks deeply at why the fire spread so rapidly.
I know of a two story block of flats where the fire doors are so heavy that the very elderly residents cannot open them and where they had to remove potted plants from window sills in hallways in case of fire. (which will never happen) Yet the Grenfell building was not inspected.

Surely that is also down to the council, as the landlord , to call for a safety check and safety measures put in place.

Having lived in the past in council accommodation under Camden Council I do think that councils are often very good at NOT doing things that do need to be done.

BJ has no inherent dignity - remember also his use of the word ‘spaffing’ (posh boys word for ejaculating) when he was describing public money being spent on investigating historic child abuse cases?

I'd like to hear the opinion re this, from any Johnson admirer/supporter

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN3e-aYUusc

but I bet they won't even bother to watch

As the opening poster in this thread, I would wish to make it clear that it has not been my intention in any of my posts to accuse any forum member of carrying out "trial by internet" against any who were directly involved in this terrible tragedy or any other forum members.

If I created that impression in any way I sincerely apologise.

Do you know, I wasn't that bothered before.....but BJ is the lowest of the low.

I do think that the senior level of LFB management did not respond appropriately to what was obviously an unexpected situation that required a different approach from what was laid down in procedures. I think Dany Cotton was insensitive and somewhat arrogant to say, in effect, that she made no mistakes in her handling of the situation. However, I do not think that she should lose her pension, which is not a "gift" but something she paid into.

It is unfortunate that the first part of the inquiry related to the handling of the incident but I would imagine that the second, and in my view the most important, part will require a great deal more research and expert opinion as to the causes of the fire - why the cladding material was deemed safe and whether it was correctly installed, who made the decision re its installation and were all the regulations followed, are the regulations fit for purpose, why were there inadequate fire safety measures within the building itself, why were concerned residents ignored, etc, etc, etc. I hope the role of the Council is examined, including its response immediately after the tragedy and going forward.

I've been trying to find the words Dany Cotton used which actually caused offence, but admit I can't. From memory, she said that she followed procedure and she wouldn't have done anything differently - in the circumstances. In other words, she followed procedure. I suspect she had no choice but to say that. If she hadn't followed procedure and people had still died, she really would have been for the high jump.

I didn't understand what she said as claiming that she made no mistakes.

In any case, she's now saying that the advice does need to be reviewed, in addition to the design of high rise blocks. The big problem is that they don't have enough escape routes. If everybody had piled out into the corridors and stairwells, some people would probably have been crushed to death.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/16/london-fire-chief-calls-review-stay-put-advice-during-blazes-grenfell-tower

I'm quite horrified that buildings such as schools aren't required to have sprinklers and emergency lighting and sound systems.

growstuff in regard to your post @22:34 yesterday, i feel it was not what Dany Cotton stated in giving her evidence to the Grenfell Inquiry, but the manner in which she said it.

She came across as hard and uncaring towards those who perished or who were caught up in the tragedy in other ways. Her statement that she would not change any of the decisions she made on that night, seemed baffling to many in view of what happened following those decisions.

I feel that with the limited information Cotton had to hand and the way the fire was behaving she was in an extremely difficult position.

The fire went from the bottom to the top of the building in less than half an hour, in that situation she had time to make only make one call in regard to what the advise to the residence should be. With hindsight, it is easy for her critics to say she made the wrong one, but on first arrival on the scene that night she probably made the only decision she could make in those crucial minutes.

Grandad Too many people use their emotions rather their brains to judge people. Cotton is human too and could very well have been in shock.

What did you expect her to say? Of course she couldn't have said she would have done anything differently. She followed procedure and if she had immediately said she would have done anything differently, she would have would have implied that national policy is wrong. The evidence is that it isn't wrong. Hundreds of people rushing out to escape would very possibly have resulted in deaths from crushing, especially children and the less mobile.

With hindsight, she did make a mistake in not instructing people on the scene to abandon procedure and that's why she's now calling for a review. All emergency services have to have established procedures, if total chaos isn't to ensue.Y

I used to work in a job where we had to factor in our judgement about the regret and remorse of the person in making a decision about the sanction to be applied. People express these feelings differently both in words, with body language and facially. Some are weepy, nervous, inarticulate, some appear almost destroyed by the events, some seem indifferent, some are fluent, earnest, good at eye contact. What I learned was by their deeds shall ye know them.

Well said suzie. That's what I was trying to get across. People must not be judged on the impression they give.

Quite a lot of work has been done on how people with responsibility act in emergencies. I'm no psychologist, but I understand that there are many factors involved, which I'm sure people can research for themselves, if they're interested.

Cotton is being treated by some as a demon and murderer, which she quite clearly isn't. I understand that those directly involved are still angry, but I can only guess why others are so keen to scapegoat her. Sadly, emergency service workers and medical staff face difficult decisions every day and sometimes they make mistakes. We have "red tape" and health and safety regulations to try and prevent situations such as the Grenfell Tower tragedy.

I worked in emergency services before retiring and never forgot the words of one old hand coming up to retirement- we have to deal with the results of other people’s mistakes.

I wasn't very impressed with this woman's rather flippant comment about space ships landing on the Shard either.

She seemed quite cold and aloof.

But it was a dreadful situation and I'd hate to be in her shoes

I didn't know this thread was only about the Fire Service.

When does the Inquest start on the cladding and the Council?

In the new year, I believe, pinkquartz

I am thankful she didn’t do a Corbyn and tell the survivors
‘I feel your pain’ .

I thought Judge Moore-Bick's first phase report seemed very accurate and even handed. He stated that the cladding did not meet current building regs, that various elements of the building including lift access were badly maintained, that communications between all agencies, the fire service, police, ambulance were appalling and that the 'stay put' advice should have been reversed earlier.

Dany Cotton's evidence to the enquiry was, as commented on specifically by the judge, extraordinarily insensitive. I shuddered when I heard it.

It is clear that the fire service did not learn the lessons they should have from Lakanal House fire despite telling the Coroner they had made significant changes and provided re-education.

I would not deny her the pension she has earned.

But the fire service and all others involved in this tragedy should be held accountable for their errors so they can learn. Being a public servant does not exempt individuals from competence. Individual brave fire fighters were singled our for praise.

As so often, terrible tragedies (Hisborough springs to mind) are the result of myriad human errors.

The second phase will reveal why the building was so poorly maintained and identify where the serious difficulties with the cladding emanated.

anniebach cheap cheap cheap cheap cheap and very very nasty. This thread is not about you and your obsessions. You should be ashamed of yourself.