Grenfell Tower Inquiry Report

RubyLou excellent post.

Controlling the opinion of others? ??????? You grant me greater powers than I possess. Disagreeing and challenging does not equal controlling. You were wrong about her pension - saying that is not controlling your opinions, it’s calling you out.

annie still criticising others for bringing politics into this thread?

Not at all ashamed of my opinions on people who choose not to express sympathy and people who overdo it for the camera , I find ‘I feel your pain’ nauseating regardless of who utters it,
plus it’s a lie, it is not possible to feel another’s pain,

So as cold as Dany Cotton’s response was , it was preferable to
‘I feel your pain’

Still trying to control posters opinions suzie ? Trying to control the opinions of others is truly shameful.

Ruby I don’t disagree at all about most of what you say. I think what I found unacceptable was the leaking of the report and the gutter press attempts to scapegoat D.C. and attack her rights to a well earned pension.

anniebach cheap cheap cheap cheap cheap and very very nasty. This thread is not about you and your obsessions. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I thought Judge Moore-Bick's first phase report seemed very accurate and even handed. He stated that the cladding did not meet current building regs, that various elements of the building including lift access were badly maintained, that communications between all agencies, the fire service, police, ambulance were appalling and that the 'stay put' advice should have been reversed earlier.

Dany Cotton's evidence to the enquiry was, as commented on specifically by the judge, extraordinarily insensitive. I shuddered when I heard it.

It is clear that the fire service did not learn the lessons they should have from Lakanal House fire despite telling the Coroner they had made significant changes and provided re-education.

I would not deny her the pension she has earned.

But the fire service and all others involved in this tragedy should be held accountable for their errors so they can learn. Being a public servant does not exempt individuals from competence. Individual brave fire fighters were singled our for praise.

As so often, terrible tragedies (Hisborough springs to mind) are the result of myriad human errors.

The second phase will reveal why the building was so poorly maintained and identify where the serious difficulties with the cladding emanated.

I am thankful she didn’t do a Corbyn and tell the survivors
‘I feel your pain’ .

In the new year, I believe, pinkquartz

I didn't know this thread was only about the Fire Service.

When does the Inquest start on the cladding and the Council?

I wasn't very impressed with this woman's rather flippant comment about space ships landing on the Shard either.

She seemed quite cold and aloof.

But it was a dreadful situation and I'd hate to be in her shoes

I worked in emergency services before retiring and never forgot the words of one old hand coming up to retirement- we have to deal with the results of other people’s mistakes.

Well said suzie. That's what I was trying to get across. People must not be judged on the impression they give.

Quite a lot of work has been done on how people with responsibility act in emergencies. I'm no psychologist, but I understand that there are many factors involved, which I'm sure people can research for themselves, if they're interested.

Cotton is being treated by some as a demon and murderer, which she quite clearly isn't. I understand that those directly involved are still angry, but I can only guess why others are so keen to scapegoat her. Sadly, emergency service workers and medical staff face difficult decisions every day and sometimes they make mistakes. We have "red tape" and health and safety regulations to try and prevent situations such as the Grenfell Tower tragedy.

I used to work in a job where we had to factor in our judgement about the regret and remorse of the person in making a decision about the sanction to be applied. People express these feelings differently both in words, with body language and facially. Some are weepy, nervous, inarticulate, some appear almost destroyed by the events, some seem indifferent, some are fluent, earnest, good at eye contact. What I learned was by their deeds shall ye know them.

Grandad Too many people use their emotions rather their brains to judge people. Cotton is human too and could very well have been in shock.

What did you expect her to say? Of course she couldn't have said she would have done anything differently. She followed procedure and if she had immediately said she would have done anything differently, she would have would have implied that national policy is wrong. The evidence is that it isn't wrong. Hundreds of people rushing out to escape would very possibly have resulted in deaths from crushing, especially children and the less mobile.

With hindsight, she did make a mistake in not instructing people on the scene to abandon procedure and that's why she's now calling for a review. All emergency services have to have established procedures, if total chaos isn't to ensue.Y

growstuff in regard to your post @22:34 yesterday, i feel it was not what Dany Cotton stated in giving her evidence to the Grenfell Inquiry, but the manner in which she said it.

She came across as hard and uncaring towards those who perished or who were caught up in the tragedy in other ways. Her statement that she would not change any of the decisions she made on that night, seemed baffling to many in view of what happened following those decisions.

I feel that with the limited information Cotton had to hand and the way the fire was behaving she was in an extremely difficult position.

The fire went from the bottom to the top of the building in less than half an hour, in that situation she had time to make only make one call in regard to what the advise to the residence should be. With hindsight, it is easy for her critics to say she made the wrong one, but on first arrival on the scene that night she probably made the only decision she could make in those crucial minutes.

I've been trying to find the words Dany Cotton used which actually caused offence, but admit I can't. From memory, she said that she followed procedure and she wouldn't have done anything differently - in the circumstances. In other words, she followed procedure. I suspect she had no choice but to say that. If she hadn't followed procedure and people had still died, she really would have been for the high jump.

I didn't understand what she said as claiming that she made no mistakes.

In any case, she's now saying that the advice does need to be reviewed, in addition to the design of high rise blocks. The big problem is that they don't have enough escape routes. If everybody had piled out into the corridors and stairwells, some people would probably have been crushed to death.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/16/london-fire-chief-calls-review-stay-put-advice-during-blazes-grenfell-tower

I'm quite horrified that buildings such as schools aren't required to have sprinklers and emergency lighting and sound systems.

I do think that the senior level of LFB management did not respond appropriately to what was obviously an unexpected situation that required a different approach from what was laid down in procedures. I think Dany Cotton was insensitive and somewhat arrogant to say, in effect, that she made no mistakes in her handling of the situation. However, I do not think that she should lose her pension, which is not a "gift" but something she paid into.

It is unfortunate that the first part of the inquiry related to the handling of the incident but I would imagine that the second, and in my view the most important, part will require a great deal more research and expert opinion as to the causes of the fire - why the cladding material was deemed safe and whether it was correctly installed, who made the decision re its installation and were all the regulations followed, are the regulations fit for purpose, why were there inadequate fire safety measures within the building itself, why were concerned residents ignored, etc, etc, etc. I hope the role of the Council is examined, including its response immediately after the tragedy and going forward.

Do you know, I wasn't that bothered before.....but BJ is the lowest of the low.

As the opening poster in this thread, I would wish to make it clear that it has not been my intention in any of my posts to accuse any forum member of carrying out "trial by internet" against any who were directly involved in this terrible tragedy or any other forum members.

If I created that impression in any way I sincerely apologise.

I'd like to hear the opinion re this, from any Johnson admirer/supporter

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN3e-aYUusc

but I bet they won't even bother to watch

BJ has no inherent dignity - remember also his use of the word ‘spaffing’ (posh boys word for ejaculating) when he was describing public money being spent on investigating historic child abuse cases?

I am unsure whether the makers of the cladding should have provided a warning, or even refused the job as they should have known that it was not suitable for tower blocks. I believe that this was said just after the fire.

I don't think I am doing a trial by internet. I am writing of my thoughts at the time and I cannot bear to see fingers pointing at the Fire Service. The very people who risk their lives to save others.

this was a unique situation and I don't want to use hindsight either.

The enquiry I hope looks deeply at why the fire spread so rapidly.
I know of a two story block of flats where the fire doors are so heavy that the very elderly residents cannot open them and where they had to remove potted plants from window sills in hallways in case of fire. (which will never happen) Yet the Grenfell building was not inspected.

Surely that is also down to the council, as the landlord , to call for a safety check and safety measures put in place.

Having lived in the past in council accommodation under Camden Council I do think that councils are often very good at NOT doing things that do need to be done.

Thank you for the link. People over use certain words but my God, that's appalling.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN3e-aYUusc

Here you are grape