Brexit dividing my family.

However, I will say that I don't know anyone at all who is enthusiastic about either Boris or Corbyn as leaders, even if they vote Tory or Labour.

Me whenever anyone on Gransnet says:

"I ' m n o t a p o l i t i c a l a c t i v i s t"

...Must be another political activist...

jura I don't think the not talking about politics is a British thing
I think it must be that one poster.
Politics always was talked about freely when I was growing up and still is despite differences of opinion!

Is "activist" a dirty word or something?

How can people vote for someone they describe as a laughable buffoon or a lovable rogue, growstuff? I’m looking for our next Prime Minister not a children’s entertainer!

There is no such think as a lovable rogue, except to those benefitting from his roguery. A rogue is someone who exploits other people for his advantage

The problem with referendums, as with elections, is that we must look at how they are established and conducted. There are very few who would say that an election in North Korea or even China was fairly and democratically carried out. The actual voting may be utterly free, but the list of candidates and their views will have been carefully controlled.

The same thing applies to the referendum. In countries who use referenda as part of the democratic process, there are very careful controls as it how the referendum is set up, the question is scrutinised by cross party committees and, where constitutional change is planned a 60% or two thirds majority is required. None of this happened with our referendum. David Cameron, who stands to be remembered in history only for the referendum and nothing else, thought the referendum was a foregone conclusion and gave the question or majority no more than a cursory thought before launching it.

I voted Remain, but believe very strongly that having voted Leave, we should have been out of the EU at the end of 2016. If you belong to a club and want to leave it, you stop paying your subscription and just leave. The whole idea of negotiating leaving conditions is ridiculous and delaying leaving until these are complete.

Of course there is a sting in the tail. If we had just walked away from the EU in 2016 and taken the results of the vote on the nose, I suspect we would be back in the EU by now, somewhat bruised and battered economically, extremely apologetic but relieved to be back where we belong.

Who pays for the contracts we entered into then monica?

We would, part of the price of leaving.

Our family has become divided since 2016. Our daughters are all voted remain as did OH, myself and the younger members of the family. However some others, mainly older family members, voted leave and this has caused several rows. When we meet for family occasion politics is banned but everyone is walking on eggshells shells. It’s deeply unpleasant and baffles me how people still think that this election will sort everything out - it won’t. Like many others I wish the Tory’s has sorted their issues out internally rather than dragging the country down in this way. I will never forgive them .

MOnica in a previous life I negotiated contracts for specialist goods and services in an enormous organisation. I was part of a team that developed Just In Time supply chains and materials management. We needed to implement GATT rules which meant, amongst other things, we knew the companies we used complied with the health and safety regs and fair employment regs were met; and it took literally years for supply contracts to be negotiated and then more years for service contracts. But once in place it meant standards were set and that suppliers were vetted properly; they often held bulk stocks for us that we just called down when needed. We could cut out local warehousing and either sell off the buildings or put to a better use. We could hold at point of use the specialist products we needed for that week reduce storage at point of use and reduce our overall costs. To undo all this will take ages and require the renegotiation of hundreds of contracts, whilst maintaining a service. This cannot begin until the trade agreements with future countries are in place. It is not like leaving a club or a gym; it is just not that simple. All this will be possible eventually but it will not happen overnight, and most certainly, it will not happen inside of a year. One day all of you may need that service we provided; the organisation was the NHS and the point of use was hospital wards. I’m not a political activist but defend anyone’s democratic right to be one if they wish; I’m a retired supply chain specialist who owes her life to the NHS as it successfully treated me for Breast Cancer.

Dido, you misunderstood my point. I am aware of everything that was in your post, but the majority of Leavers didn't. They did think it was like leaving a club or gym. And since they won the referendum that is what they should have got.

We should just have walked out, without trade agreements, rupturing almost without warning all types of international and commercial agreements and faced the consequences.

If we had left at the end of the year the government would have had six months to set up alternative schemes to protect the NHS, but everything else.

We all, Remainers and Leavers, would have had to face the consequences of our actions. I am well aware that the effect on the economy would have been catastrophic, which is why, think it should have been done, because within three months we would have been knocking onthe door of Brussels begging to be let in again.

Bear in mind that because the referendum was so badly set out, the lack of forward planning for a possible leaver victory, the governent would have deserved every thing that hit them.

As Boris has told us, and naturally I believe every word he says, we can walk out without a deal at the end of this year and sort everything out by the end of next. year. So if we had left in December 2016 it wouldn't have been as catastrophic as you and I know.

Thinking about the original question of 'how Brexit is dividing families'. I am fortunate that in my family we are all on the same page. Whereas extended famiy members do differ but we leave well alone.
It did make me wonder though how BJ's family are coping.
BJ himself, admitted as being akin to a 'pot of honey on the supermarket shelf' because he is from mixed heritage of Jews, Muslim, Anglican and Catholic stock; does not say much about the quality of the honey.

BJ's father was an MEP, his brother a Tory MP now resigned due to family loyalties. His sister was a member of the Tory, then Change UK party, then Lib Dem party and now is back in the fold of the Tory party.
Love to be a fly on that wall

I'm sure that, like the majority of families, they can disagree (and probably very volubly!) about politics but still love each other.

Why would anyone argue about poxy Brexit. because some of us have family and friends who live here and are EU citizens and since Brexit their lives have been more difficult and they have felt unwelcome. One said its hard knowing over half the population don't think we have a right to be here and Someone I know is afraid to talk to his mother on the phone in public in his native language now because since the Brexit vote he has been shouted at to go back home because we voted out. Its hard to stay friends with people who you know voted for that.

Jura, you are correct, I can use whatever language I choose to use.

You do not need to respect the referendum result, and it doesn’t matter that you state you don’t respect it. However, the result is what it is, and respect it or not, the result stands. Unless Labour wins the election, there will be no second vote, and the polls do not suggest a Labour victory.

EthelJ

Do you condemn all leave voters because some rather rude ones behave so appallingly? It sounds as if you do. There are also many verbally aggressive remain voters so by your reasoning all remain voters should be judged for that behaviour.

I will return to the gist of my previous posts where I have stated that the referendum result is what it is and it’s a sad indictment of our society that so many people feel that the those who voted differently from themselves are ‘the enemy.’ This is apparent even on Gransnet and strangely I notice that those who shout the loudest about supporting the disadvantaged in society appear to be the least tolerant of their fellow Grans whose opinions differ from their own.

Just curious, if the Conservatives win the election, then do you think that result should be respected, in view of the supposed "lies" during the campaign, or will it again be a case of "you don't know what you voted for"?

As far as we know the campaigns have not broken any Electoral law so the result would be as 'accepted' as it is any result which a lot of people don't want or like.

It wouldn't lessen my feelings about people who voted tory...

Oh, and we all know what you will have voted for. The most appalling candidate in our history to be PM... It's not as if it's a secret...

I just hope that after Thursday we wake up with an air of optimistism and a positive sense of hope for the future for all the citizens of this country.

For all our sakes we need to remember the reasons why we love this country. We must start respecting each other again by caring for our families, friends, neighbours and communities. We need to put this madness behind us and start to smile again and just be happy.

I am exhausted by the black cloud of Brexit which has been hanging over us since 2016. The negative atmosphere that has brought out the worse in us needs to stop. This is cannot be done with rash false promises but in an orderly way with the hard facts enabling all of us to make a decision that works for everyone. If we stop arguing amongst ourselves and work together we can face the consequences of how this country will be governed for future generations.

Can anyone do a link to Matthew Parris's article in Saturdays Times 'Johnson's wink is making cynics of us all'....part of which states 'untruth comes as effortlessly to Boris Johnson as breathing'.

Freyja; the problem is, you can't build on something that is based on lies.

I'm afraid you're living in cloud cuckoo land freyja.

I wonder how the media will spin it Maizie (actually I can guess) and how those who voted for a disgraceful excuse for a human being will justify their action because - make no mistake - it's the voters who will be responsible.

..from the article...'launched in dishonesty, prime minister Johnson's career trajectory will drag him into ever deeper thickets of untruth, until a scornful electorate finally hounds him from office'. And this from a former Conservative, Matthew Parris.