Sensible discussion on Labour Leadership hopefuls

lemongrove Sun 29-Dec-19 11:51:30
Gagajo ....spoken like a true socialist and wrong! The reason a far left/ socialist party won’t get into power is that the electorate don’t want it.

The working class DO expect a functioning NHS. They expect fit for purpose schools and are outraged by class sizes. BUT they are scared of socialism.

If the same working class people that voted Tory experienced life in countries with that political system they would be able to make an informed choice. Because currently, they are scared because of the message pumped out by government, TV, internet algorithms, MSM .

But although I'm socialist, I'm also a realist. The vast majority of the UK population do not understand Keynesian or Monetary economics. They do not understand the theory of laissez faire or know what a command economy is. NOT that I think you have to understand implicitly about different economic systems and theories. BUT we as a people are not politically rebellious or insurgent. We sit and endure.

We go to food banks, or complain to our children's teachers or sit and wait in A&E when we have become really ill, because we can't get GP appointments when we need them, instead of having to wait weeks. INSTEAD of rioting the way they would in France. And as a result, the elite strangle hold continues.

Maybe the LP should resurrect Blair's 1997 manifesto and tweak it for 2019. At least it won the election!

grandad43. There is a supporter of the Labour Party who may or not be posting now, if not posting I assure you the poster did Not lack character and was/is certainly not foolish ,
and no fair weather supporter. She/he was a strong supporter of the Lsbour Party Long before you joined the forum , how
you can criticise a long standing Labour Party supporter is even more pompous than anything else you say.

I most certainly accepted the result of the General Election, the electorate made their choice and whether I and others support that choice everyone should and must accept the outcome. I also believe that anyone who goes absent from this forum because they supported the Labour Party in the run-up to the election is demonstrating lack of character and foolishness, as fairweather supporters are never an asset to any cause.

However, I find the comments in regard to the Labour Party providing an "effective opposition" in parliament very naive as the Tory Party now has a majority of eighty seats and no fine words or speeches in the House of Commons or elsewhere will prevent this government doing anything they wish to carry out for the next five years.

Brexit was the key factor in the recent election, and in the end dominated the result. Undoubtedly other factors did come into play, but it was the feeling in many people that they wished to end all the uncertainty and move on was finally why so many voted conservative.

What is important now for the Labour party is to steak out its position for the next three to four years as it is in that time period I believe it will be judged whether Brexit has been a success for Britain or a failure. Deregulation will be paramount in the government's strategy for it will be only in that way will British industries be in a position to compete with the Countries that it is hoped to sign trade deals with.

Should the sacrifice of deregulation be seen as a failure in three to four years, then a Labour Party standing on a platform of being against unrestricted capitalism and in that bringing forward the return of workers rights etc could be very attractive electorally.

Therefore I believe that the Labour movement should maintain a stance of left wing thinking and belief as is in line with current policies. However, that well may not include the present Parliamentary Labour Party in those plans and thinking.

We don't seem to be getting any nearer to what people actually want from a party of government. What didn't they like about Labour Party policies, for example ( please, not the beliefs of individuals in the leadership)?

What sort of policies would they like to see implemented? By any party...

Grandad described fine examples of activist behaviours, but I would still contend that activists don't necessarily reflect the views of the electorate.

And I don't get any feel for what socialist policies Grandad would like to see implemented.

Voters don’t vote for the Labour Party because they are brained washed ?

What POGS says is spot on, no exaggeration needed, we all read the political threads leading up to the GE.They were astounded no doubt when the LP took a beating at the polls, because they themselves saw Corbyn and far left friends as just what the country was crying out for.....only it seems it wasn’t!

The Conservative Party won’t split now....no reason to, but the LP may well do.
Gagajo ....spoken like a true socialist and wrong! The reason a far left/ socialist party won’t get into power is that the electorate don’t want it.

The REASON a socialist labour party won't get into power is because of the stranglehold of the landed wealthy elite who control almost everything about our country.

I don't know Gagajo. The cracks will be papered over for a while but the Tory party could split and we could change our minds about ever-increasing growth and profit. In fact, I would say that is already changing to some extent.

Not that this means a "socialist labour party" will take all the power but they may be part of the governing body.

I read what you say Grandad and find it very informed and interesting and I thank you for that.

It seems to me that what you say about socialism is really more about cooperative working. I like the idea of the Co-operative party and will have to find out more about it. Is it green enough for example? Socialism may suffer from being overly structured. Is there any way around this do you think or does socialism always mean state-run or controlled? Could it mean more being run by to smaller areas and become really bottom-up and not top-down?

The REASON a socialist labour party won't get into power is because of the stranglehold of the landed wealthy elite who control almost everything about our country.

We have a growing homeless problem, a return to Victorian levels of poverty, the state education system is failing and STILL the poor vote for the elite. We are very much a class-bound society. The upper class power base keeps us brainwashed as to the reality of their actions, which are SOLELY designed to maintain their iron grip on the power and wealth of the country.

Democratic socialism works well in other countries. But we are so welded to our rigid class system that the populace will never fight for what is rightfully theirs.

The working class are the LABOUR POWER (not Labour, the political party, the work force) who earn the profit for the elite. Of course they don't want us rising up. And chances are, we never will, for the reasons delineated above.

Take Gransnet for example. Grandad was joined by the same posters time and again who were totally behind Corbyn/Momentum and argued up hill and down dale Corbyn/Momentum, returning to the far left, pure socialism as they saw it was what the country WANTED. ' Pure Socialism' was what they backed via Corbyn/McDonnell/Momentum ...

Where was that then POGS? I am beginning to think this forum has got some sort of Exaggeration Disease.

MaizieD Quote [ I'd be interested to know what Grandad means by the 'socialism' of which he approves, too...] End Quote.

MaizieD in answer to the above I believe that you have to distinguish between a person who is a "true socialist" by way of the acts they carry out in their every day lives, and what may be defined as "true socialism" in terms of the governance of the Country.

In terms of a true socialist, you can look at the grassroots activists within the trade union movement where elected and trained workplace on-site representatives everyday assist other employees by way of ensuring safety and accompanying persons in disciplinary and grievance hearings with their employers.

Along with the above you have in these times what is known as "Formal Companions" who also accompany employees to disciplinary and grievance hearings in companies where a trade union is not recognised by the employer. In that, legislation dictates that an accredited trade union representative must be allowed on-site to carry out the above duties,

Those persons are often retired people who voluntarily give up the time to be trained and accredited in the role of a Formal Companion and carry out those tasks on a voluntary basis without payment often in the face of wholesale verbal abuse from bad employers who do not wish to have them on site.

The above are never the less the "bedrock" activists of the broader labour movement who I have so often met in the course of my work and to which I hold tremendous respect. Such people are "true socialist" in the way they carry out their everyday lives.

There approximately two hundred and fifty thousand of the above persons in Britain at the present time and many of them extend that activity into the Labour Party by way of the affiliation their trade unions have with that party. Often that can be through the Constituency Parties and in that making their views a huge influence on forming core policies of the Labour Party. That then engages to become a wider "socialism" born out of their personal socialist activities and experiences.

It is through the activities of such persons in recent years that the broader Labour movement has taken up a far firmer left-wing stance that has not always been reflected by many in the Parliamentary Labour Party. By example to the foregoing, it is viewed in the light of today that the Blair government introducing the minimum wage was an act of "true socialism." However, to then allow the flourishing of Zero Hours Employment Contracts and Gig Economy terms of working which then allowed any poor employer to "negate" that legislation is seen as a complete betrayal of the socialism that Blair and is cohorts were supposed to represent.

The undermining of Corbyn by a number of MPs in the Parliamentary Labour Party is also totally despised by such activists, as it was they who did so much to gain Jeremy Corbyn two overwhelming leadership election victories.

The above is how I and very many others view a true socialist, true socialism and why I feel that the Broader Labour movement in the country may well "pull the plug" on the present Parliamentary Labour Party.

What I can't get to grips with is what policies the so called "centrists" want.

No, neither can I, Ilovecheese

I had kind of hoped that some people might comment on the bit of Murphy's blog that I posted because that seemed quite 'centrist' to me.

But I think these conversations have been attempted in the past and while people are keen to say what they don't want they're very coy about what they do want.

I'd be interested to know what Grandad means by the 'socialism' of which he approves, too...

I don't mind admitting that I wanted Labour to win the election because I agreed with many of their policies. What I can't get to grips with is what policies the so called "centrists" want.
Can anyone give me an example?
I mean a positive example not just a policy that they didn't like , but one that they would like.

I think you'd better reference some posts that say that, POGS. Particularly the thing about Venezuela.

' I have a feeling that Grandad's 'new' pure socialist party wouldn't get enough votes to get into government."
---

A Hum, that point has been proven, that ship has just sailed, we know the answer, BUT:-

This is a typical sort of comment made by many in the media, political commentators, social media etc. who since Labour lost the Election by getting a total drubbing by the electorate, are now suddenly very quiet or shifting their stance because that idea has failed. Perversely they were fully engaged with it up to the Election defeat. Had Corbyn/Labour won they would no doubt be gloating with ' We told you so' the country wanted more socialism and wanted Corbyn.

Dependent on who makes that sort of statement can pure irony at times, at best disingenuous.

Take Gransnet for example. Grandad was joined by the same posters time and again who were totally behind Corbyn/Momentum and argued up hill and down dale Corbyn/Momentum, returning to the far left, pure socialism as they saw it was what the country WANTED. ' Pure Socialism' was what they backed via Corbyn/McDonnell/Momentum and they thought the country would vote for it too, except it didn't it gave it a good kicking in the backside.

A typical example would be what they said about the starvation, financial ruin, intimidation and lack of human rights in Venezuela, that it was brought about because Venezuela ' Wasn't Socialist enough'.

Grandad has never wavered from his opinion and to be honest I respect he is not a ' fair weather friend ' who is now trying to distance himself from his political stance nor what he has posted over time and there is a certain honesty in that.

Am sure big donors could be found to fund a new centre left LP if enough of them decide to break away.
Remaining a far left LP won’t win elections.

People have moved on from the 60’s and 70’s.

Perhaps that is why Ed Davey and Lib Dems won out at the 2019 Small Business Debate

www.politicshome.com/news/uk/government-and-public-sector/opinion/ipse/108359/ed-davey-and-lib-dems-win-out-2019-small

And why the IFS judged the LibDem spending plans the best

www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50545673

Isn't it a question of what do people want from their government and what would they vote for?

I have a feeling that Grandad's 'new' pure socialist party wouldn't get enough votes to get into government.

With regard to 'what do people want?' I was struck by a post by one of my favourite bloggers, Richard Murphy' who was looking at this very question.

His conclusion:

...neither party told a story that remotely reflected the real world we live in. The world of substantial interdependence, of compromise, of satisficing because nothing else is possible, and of moderation because people are aware that in reality there is no black or white when it comes to capitalism or socialism, but that there is instead a decidedly mixed economy that we need to make function to our best ability for the advantage of as many as possible, did not get a look in.

...is it any surprise that decent people don’t want to get involved in politics when the consensus of the parties is to prescribe solutions that rational people know are incompatible with the world we live in?

what people know is that the world is not binary. They know it is messy. And what they are looking for as a result are politicians with the principles, integrity and wisdom to make good choices in that messy world. That does not mean subscribing to an economic mantra that puts finances above people. Nor does it mean subscribing to a belief that markets are always wrong. No one should believe that this election result was endorsement of either of these positions.

Instead what the alienation that most found to be the prevailing theme on doorsteps says is that people want something different. That is a narrative that reflects the way we actually survive in this world. And which liberates within the real constraints that we face

Unfettered capitalism does not and cannot do that.

But nor does unfettered socialism.

Neither comes remotely close to anything people want..

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/12/27/what-the-election-proved-is-that-we-need-a-new-politics-that-reflects-reality/

(This is just extracts. The blog is much longer and, IMO, worth reading)

Why oh why do the far left want to return to times long gone.

Isn't there an example anywhere of a modern socialist party?

Big difference if the centre left MP’s, broke away , there would be enough to become the official opposition .

Has anyone any ideas about how many this might be? I'm never too sure where the quiet ones stand.

The bullying and abuse of labour MP’s is true.

grandad43 seems to dwell much on Margaret Hodge , there was much effort put into deselecting her, they failed.

Why oh why do the far left want to return to times long gone.

Grandad has been consistent with his opinion over where the Labour Party is ' possibly' heading.

Grandad has been consistent with his opinion over Labour MP's such as Margaret Hodge and others who dared to challenge Corbyn or those who surround him.

The fact is ever since Corbyn /Momentum ' took over' the Labour Party there was an almost instant hit of reports displaying to those who were interested the Labour Party had stopped being a Broad Church but had succumbed to
Factionalism.

We understood this was happening not by reading the right wing press or listening to the BBC as some continue to see as the source of all Labour's woe but by the words spoken by Labour MP's themselves.

From 2016 there has been a view by those who are on the far left / Corbyn side of the argument the Labour MP's who did not accept the return to the far left should be deselected and sadly they suffered an unprecedented onslaught of personal intimidation and harassment which has lasted for years.

Sadly the world of politics has become a cesspit of bile and abusive behaviour that has hit ALL political parties and this is for the most part due to the fact those who engage in such behaviour do so because they hide behind anonymity.

I now know that whataboutery will raise the Conservative Party and Johnson taking the whip away from his MP's and it is a fair point to raise. They lost the whip because they stood on a Manifesto to abide by the EU Referendum result and they voted against their Manifesto and did all they could to oppose their party by voting against their own party and joining the opposition. The whip has been restored to many.

Labour/Momentum on the other hand wanted to vanquish those fellow MP's who opposed their aim to take Labour back to far left and it has been trying to do so since Corbyn became Leader and it was a case of Labour fighting Labour over the soul of the party.

The General Election result will do 2 things. Either Labour will ' finally split' and Grandad gives a rational opinion as to how that could happen by the Unions withholding finances or Labour will try and put aside the differences and regroup. The latter in my opinion has a mountain to climb as the intimidation and personal abuse MP's have been subjected to over the past few years surely cannot be simply swept away, how ever much some can't accept this has even happened.