Well done Lawrence Fox!

I’d be interested to know why the mixed race audience member’s view is more valid than LF’s? I ask because on the Jeremy Vine show a black, female panel member didn’t feel criticism of MM was racist either. By your reasoning someone’s views on anything are defined by their class and upbringing. You wouldn’t have any problem with a white, middle class intellectual lecturing you on racism and the varying nuances of such but you won’t accept it in reverse; that is telling you what isn’t racism.

I don’t know if all the criticism aimed at M has been racist. My criticism is recent and has nothing to do with her colour but rather what I see as hypocrisy.

Baggs Since you ask for the sources of my claims of ongoing and fairly common racial discriminatory practices in housing and employment:

Employment

The Guardian 2019

"Minority ethnic Britons face 'shocking' job discrimination

"Exclusive: UK research finds levels of discrimination unchanged since late 1960s

......... "Black Britons and those of south Asian origin face “shocking” discrimination in the labour market at levels unchanged since the late 1960s, research has found.

"A study by experts based at the Centre for Social Investigation at Nuffield College, University of Oxford, found applicants from minority ethnic backgrounds had to send 80% more applications to get a positive response from an employer than a white person of British origin.

"A linked study by the same researchers, comparing their results with similar field experiments dating back to 1969, found discrimination against black Britons and those of south Asian origin – particularly Pakistanis – unchanged over almost 50 years.

.... "The researchers sent almost 3,200 applications to both manual and non-manual jobs – including software engineers, marketing, chefs and shop assistants – advertised on a popular recruitment platform between November 2016 and December 2017.

"The study, which will be launched at the British Academy, London, on Friday, included 33 different minority ethnic groups, belonging to five broad groups. Additionally, two minority ethnic groups – Nigerian and Pakistani – were designed to have sufficiently large numbers of applications for separate analysis. Different ethnicity applicants were randomly assigned to different job vacancies – only one application was sent per post – and the number of callbacks/invitations for interview compared.

"On average, 24% of applicants of white British origin received a positive response from employers, compared with 15% of minority ethnic applicants applying with identical CVs and cover letters. All of the minority applications clearly stated that they were either British-born or had arrived in the country by the age of six and had obtained all their education and training in Britain.

"Is it easier to get a job if you're Adam or Mohamed?
By Zack Adesina and Oana Marocico
BBC Inside Out
6 February 2017

"A job seeker with an English-sounding name was offered three times the number of interviews than an applicant with a Muslim name, a BBC test found.

"Inside Out London sent CVs from two candidates, "Adam" and "Mohamed", who had identical skills and experience, in response to 100 job opportunities.

"Adam was offered 12 interviews, while Mohamed was offered four.

"Although the results were based on a small sample size, they tally with the findings of previous academic studies.

These have found British Muslims are less proportionately represented in managerial and professional occupations than any other religious group.

" 'Significant discrimination'

The fake candidates applied for 100 jobs as business managers in the competitive field of advertising sales in London.

After two and a half months, Adam was offered three times more interviews than Mohamed.....

"What we've identified very clearly is that the Muslim-sounding person's CV is only likely to get an interview in one out of three cases.

"Yogesh Khrishna Davé, 56, is the director for quality at a pharmaceutical company in Slough. It has taken him decades to reach this senior role.

"During the journey up the ladder he suspected he was being consistently overlooked for jobs because of his name. So he secretly carried out his own experiment.

"I entered the job market in the 80s. I put my CV in and it was disappointing. I got rejection letters.

"Someone suggested: 'Why don't you put a very English name on your CV [as well as sending one in your own name]... and see who they might offer the job to?' So I had my name, Yogesh, and John Smith. John Smith got the interview. I got rejected for the interview."............

"A field experiment for the Department for Work and Pensions in 2009 found ethnic minority applicants were discriminated against in favour of white applicants in 29% of cases.

"In 2015, a report by the charity Demos found British Muslims were less proportionately represented in managerial and professional occupations than any other religious group." .......

Housing

Reported in the Guardian October 2013:

Estate agents discriminate against black people, finds BBC investigation

"Posing as a landlord, reporter uncovers London agents willing to meet request flat should not be let to African-Caribbean renters

"Estate agents discriminate against black people - BBC finds
Estate agents say they cannot openly bar black people but can stop them taking up a flat by pretending it has already been let or falsely promising to call back, according to the BBC programme.

"Estate agents in London are routinely discriminating against black people looking for a home in the private rental market, an undercover investigation has found.

"The BBC's Inside Out programme uncovered 10 estate agents in north-west London who were willing to meet
landlords' specification that properties should not be let to African-Caribbean people.

"Posing as a landlord who did not want to let out his flat to black people, an undercover reporter asked agents if they would be willing to discriminate against potential tenants. All 10 said although they could not openly bar black people they could prevent them taking up the flat by pretending it had been let, or by falsely promising to call them back.........

"Undercover researchers with the exact same credentials – one white, one black – then posed as potential tenants interested in the flat and were told very different stories. Jo, who is white, was immediately giving a viewing, while Deane, who is black, was told that the flat had been let..........

"Inside Out London producer Guy Lynn said the investigation was prompted after hearing that racial discrimination was a huge and growing problem. "I spoke to lawyers, letting agents, landlords, they all said that this was something that was incredibly easy and very common.....

"Equality lawyer Arpita Dutt said the consequences for society of such racism were serious. "This type of behaviour takes us back 40-50 years ......."

I believe there are several other studies that demonstrate similar results.

Eloethan - here I am again, thanking you for well informed comments.
Its curious, that so many people can come together to deny what was before our eyes on QT (yes, trisher, I saw it as you did) and also what research based evidence tells us. I sometimes need to remind myself, that in the post Trump, post Michael Gove times, that experts and research mean nothing.

Baggs had the people you are asking about been saying the poor were find and dandy I would equate their views as similar to LF's. As it is empathy and understanding are shown by appreciating in the first place that there is a problem and then doing something about it. LF did neither

Persons with various disabilities frequently state that that they have problems in accessing employment and in using public amenities such as trains, buses and public lavatories, amongst other things.

Would it be thought appropriate for large numbers of able-bodied people to weigh in, dismissing their complaints and saying they are concocting stories about the difficulties they are having, claiming that disability legislation is yet another reinforcement of petty political correctness initiatives and that it puts able bodied people at a disadvantage, etc, etc?

I don't think many people would think it at all appropriate and yet it seems when it comes to the issue of racism it seems to be quite in order for the majority white population of a country, against all evidence to the contrary, to speak with assumed authority of the experience of being non-white and to dismiss allegations of racism as "playing the race card" or as over sensitivity.

Thank you, eloethan.

Reading through stuff now...

Um. It's not possible for two people to have "identical CVs and cover letter" unless they've cheated by collaborating. This makes me doubt the accuracy of other parts of the report or, at the very least, to wonder at the writer's competence both at writing and interpreting studies.

I like your well argued post of 18:00, eloethan. However, I think that many people feel that the term racist/racism (and even nazi) has been used far too often, and wrongly, in recent years so it has lost some of its power (and its meaning). I think that's why, as well as the criticism and abuse LF is getting, he's also getting masses of support. People are just sick of being called racists when they're not or being told something is racism when it isn't.

BTW, I'm just as sceptical about most newspaper reports about "studies", academic or otherwise, regardless what they're about.

Of course they can, for research purposes- exactly the same CV, just different name.

Duplicate CVs using different names would be picked out in any HR dept. This would probably be the reason for rejection as it would be perceived that the content had been copied.

Although of British heritage, my name could be perceived to be of African or similar origin. To my knowledge this has not been detrimental to my career. I only ever applied for jobs where I well matched the job and person spec. I know that there are many who do not do this and apply for jobs far above their abilities.

My guess (although this is something of a side issue) is that both CVs matched the essential and desirable qualifications and experienced required, so maybe not identical, but both should have been shortlisted. In any case, even if one was rejected for 'copying', why was it so often the one with the 'ethnic' sounding name?

Also, elsewhere on GN, people are accusing one another of bullying. Whether or not the 'bully' realised that this is what she was doing, if someone feels bullied is it anyone else's place (black or white, bullied or not) to tell her how she feels?

Whether or not the 'bully' accepts that the motive was bullying, if someone feels bullied it would make sense to ask why she felt like that and look at the behaviour to see whether it could be modified, not to shout her down and insist that It Is Not Bullying!!

It is possible to say exactly the same, on the same linguistic register - but differently. Same experience, same qualifications and grades, etc. One skill I often practised with our 6th Formers.

And change presentation too- and again, on the same register.

Joelsnan You seem to misunderstand. The researchers deliberately sent out two "dummy" CVs with identical contents but with different applicant names. In the cases the research highlighted, the imaginary person with the CV with the English-sounding name was invited for interview, whereas the imaginary person with the identical - save for the name - CV was not. This was not an isolated incident - it happened enough times for it to be deemed reliable and statistically significant. Are you seriously saying that university-conducted research is of no more value than people's personal perceptions and opinions? Anyway, how could you possibly know whether your name on a CV has been perceived as "foreign sounding" or has affected your chances of being called for interview? The anecdotal evidence of thousands of non-white people relating their experiences of racism seems to carry no weight unless backed up by statistical evidence so why should the anecdotal theorising of one person be considered worthy of consideration?

What fault are you going to find with the under-cover investigation carried out at London estate agents?

Baggs People researching this issue say that levels of racial discrimination within, for instance, employment and housing, have been found to be at a similar, fairly high, level as in the 1960's. Yet there are many people who seek to either deny the fact or minimise the whole issue. That, in my view, demonstrates their own racism.

Sorry are people saying that black football players dont experience racism because other players get things thrown at them. What kind of analysis is that?

Oh lord- bees in bonnets? Or will that start another little tangent?

It’s the ‘isms’ being applied to any criticism!

Tangents are part of conversation. What I was trying to convey is the reality of the situation. Whilst people are saying can they criticise a black striker those black strikers are having bananas thrown at them.

The white strikers are having bottles and coins thrown at them. Having stitches in their heads. David Beckham spoke of how they would shout they hoped his kids would die of cancer. It’s all despicable but that’s a certain mentality and any decent person finds it disgusting. They say and do whatever they think will put them off. I think the Australian’s call it sledging. I know the banana throwing is racism but is it worse than the other stuff?

I’m off for the night now. I really do have better stuff to do.

Yes because the black players get both. So if people dont like their football they throw stuff at them, if people dont like the colour of their skin they throw bananas and do monkey chants.

Yes, racist abuse is in a different league to “the other stuff”, tickingbird. Black players get all the “other stuff” as well as bananas and monkey chants.

And to bring things back to LF do those who approve of his comments not see how such remarks fuel the despicable racist behaviour on the terraces?

Eloethan
Most HR departments are acutely aware of discrimination laws and would not place their company in the position if being sued for discrimination, that is not to say small businesses may not discriminate, just as some do towards women if child bearing age.
With regard to LF, I think those who throw the racist term around so freely just to create a self satisfying sense of outrage more problematic than what LF stated.
True racism is despicable, but not exclusive to white Brits. Turn the argument around to say an African country and the same issues would be there and more acutely so because apart from skin colour, a persons tribe, country of birth and other issues come into play.
Those who live in multicultural areas of the UK know that many who come to live here bring their own racism and deep prejudices with them. The analogy of racism being a white privilege issue only is very far off the mark.

Trisher.
That is exactly what I was going to say about Oprah Winfrey, she was brought up in real poverty. She eventually did well because she was very clever and perservered.