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Do you beieve Hancock or NHS staff?

(179 Posts)
trisher Sun 12-Apr-20 11:43:56

According to Matt Hancock there are sufficient supplies of PPE equipment around. But the evidence from NHS staff contradicts that.
A third of UK surgeons and surgical trainees do not believe they have an adequate supply of personal protective equipment (PPE) in their trust, with wide regional variations, a survey has found.
More than half of those who responded (57%) to the Royal College of Surgeons (RCS) of England survey said there have been shortages in the past 30 days.
The survey of nearly 2,000 surgeons and trainees showed a postcode lottery when it comes to PPE. More than half (52%) of respondents in the Thames Valley said they now have access to adequate PPE, but that dropped to just over a third (34.7%) in the North West.
In London, which has been at the heart of the outbreak in the UK, a third (33.4%) of respondents said they do not believe their trust has an adequate supply of PPE.
^ survey was carried out after improved PPE guidance was issued by NHS England at the beginning of April ^
Sue Hill, RCS vice president, said:
The guidance is now much improved, but we have consistently said that advice about what protection to use for which medical procedures is rendered meaningless if the kit doesn’t reach the front line.
More than half of those responding to the survey also expressed scepticism about their chances of getting a Covid-19 test for themselves, should they need one.
Confidence was particularly low in the East of England, where 75% of surgeons said they believed they would not get access to a test.
One surgeon, who responded to the survey said:
The lack of mask wearing in general patient contact has been scandalous.
I caught Covid-19 from a patient on the ward who was pre-symptomatic but later tested positive. He infected at least six staff. One of my colleagues remains very sick from this.
I was denied a test even on appeal. We were ‘spoken to’ for wearing simple masks and gloves in general ward areas. We agreed to submit to authority but strongly disagreed that there was no risk.
The RCS is urging its members not to risk their health, and that of their patients, by carrying out risky procedures without adequate PPE

EllanVannin Sun 12-Apr-20 11:46:44

You can't believe anyone unless they're on the front-line ! I don't anyway. Simple as that.

GagaJo Sun 12-Apr-20 11:52:55

NHS staff everytime. All politicians lie (other than the one who has just stepped down). I don't believe any of them.

Barmeyoldbat Sun 12-Apr-20 11:54:16

I believe the NHS, three gd working on the front line and a daughter receiving care in her home. Her carers don't always have PPE because of a shortage.
This government has been a disgrace in the way it has handled the PPE.

FarNorth Sun 12-Apr-20 11:55:26

The public are being told to socially distance, as anyone could be contagious.

Medical staff cannot reliably maintain social distance, while working, so should be using PPE.

If that means that more PPE is needed, than estimated by health board management, that's fine.

silverlining48 Sun 12-Apr-20 12:11:22

I am with the staff.

NfkDumpling Sun 12-Apr-20 12:18:04

I believe both. (I am an expert at fence sitting).

I think the government are doing their best but getting stuff to where its needed with limited staff to organise it all is hard. More PPE is undoubtedly being produced but getting the systems stepped up fast enough to get stuff to where its needed isn’t happening.

A bit like all the milk that’s being poured away because restaurants and coffee shops are closed. The logistics haven’t re-arranged themselves sufficiently yet.

Anniebach Sun 12-Apr-20 12:18:36

Who is the politician who has just stepped down ?

SirChenjin Sun 12-Apr-20 12:20:22

My NHS colleagues and my family member who’s just recovering from the virus (thankfully) on the frontline every single time. Hancock should be absolutely ashamed of himself - his true colours and feeling shone through loud and clear with that ridiculous, insulting comment.

CrazyGrandma2 Sun 12-Apr-20 12:22:54

It is listening to the NHS staff that keeps me staying at home. I trust them far more than the spin doctors in government. If they'd got their act together sooner then maybe we wouldn't be the current death toll. We won't know until we can look back on it and evaluate what was done and when.

Kalu Sun 12-Apr-20 12:31:38

Three family members who are medics in the front line are those I would believe and they are appalled at lack of PPE

I read a letter from the BMA and other health organisations requesting the government to make use of factories lying idle and skilled staff enabling PPE to be manufactured in the UK. Some raw materials would have to be imported but it can be done. This was last Wednesday and I haven’t seen any update so far.

Disorganised chaos run by those who could do/could have done so much more resulting in unnecessary disaster ?

EllanVannin Sun 12-Apr-20 12:36:32

The staffing levels on the ward where my StepGD works is abysmal. She's a night-worker on a ward for the mentally ill which is very heavy work and she has been there for many years now .
It's a ward in a local hospital who'd cared for the first lot of people to arrive from Wuhan.
Staff there work so hard without all the proper resources that there should be in place, but all do their very best and are a credit to this part of the country. Well done APH ! x

It's also a hospital that I spent 10 years of my final working life in so know first hand how hard everyone does work and I for one wouldn't be listening to any know all minister at what he/she was spouting.

MaizieD Sun 12-Apr-20 12:39:13

The tories knew four years ago that this would be the likely outcome for the NHS faced with a pandemic.

Operation Cygnus. Lots and lots of links here:

Tory government decided not to spend any money on emergency stockpiling and suppressed the report.

All large operations should have emergency planning in place; the very real possibility of a pandemic has been on the cards for years. Tories too busy running down the NHS for privatisation (and dealing with stupid Brexit) to bother about the safety of UK citizens.

I'm with the NHS staff 100%

Jane10 Sun 12-Apr-20 12:45:20

I'm absolutely sure that all politicians are doing their level best. I assume you haven't read my thread entitled Being Human. It covers the problems getting people organised and actually pulling together to get testing done.
Re PPE : there's literally thousands of places all over the country large and small clamouring for the equipment. The logistics are a nightmare. If the politicians could just say 'let it be simultaneously done' and it was done that would be great.
I know that a lot of places actually do have supplies of PPE and aren't complaining as good news isn't of interest and, besides, they're really busy.

notanan2 Sun 12-Apr-20 12:49:23

It has been senior front line staff telling other front line staff when to wear PPE and when NOT to wear PPE. And there disagreements there.

It is also difficult to quantify because some people saying they have "no PPE" do have the appropriate PPE for their tasks or setting. But they dont consider it to be PPE.

Some people now associate "PPE" with full filter masks and gowns ONLY. Which are actually unsafe to be warn outside of certain tasks or settings. You could not for example wear it around an ordinary ward all day.

Staff from settings that stock gloves aprons etc saying they have "no PPE" dont mean necessaroly that they have run out of those things.

So these "is there isnt there PPE" reports arent helpful because they arent quantified. What LEVELS of PPE are/arent there in which setting.

"PPE" has become a subjective term

Eloethan Sun 12-Apr-20 12:52:03

Whose purpose does it serve to lie or to mislead?

The nurses, doctors, support staff and carers? I don't think so - why would they? At this particular moment all they want is the right personal protection equipment to work safely in a very dangerous environment. I expect most of them would have also liked a government that ensured more staff were recruited and retained.

Or the government that had been advised the NHS would be overwhelmed if there was a pandemic, that was told to prepare for one and who appears not to have done?

Charleygirl5 Sun 12-Apr-20 12:54:23

My local, which is large and has the second highest number of Covid 19 deaths in London has some staff wearing bin bags.
The doctors on ICU at present have PPE.

Daisymae Sun 12-Apr-20 12:54:56

The staff of course. Ministers seem to think that they just have to say it and it will be true. I think they have taken the course that some people will believe them all of the time etc. It strikes me that maybe the ministers should visit the wards and have to wear the same level of protection as the staff. Guaranteed the correct PPE it would be sorted before they reached their destination. The thing about this pandemic is that it has been forecast. It has not come out of nowhere and taken everyone by surprise, it has always been a matter of when not if.

Whitewavemark2 Sun 12-Apr-20 13:00:07

Staff every time. Why wouldn’t I?

Tangerine Sun 12-Apr-20 13:00:09

I believe the staff. From what I understand, PPE is more available in some areas than others.

notanan2 Sun 12-Apr-20 13:01:28

Whose purpose does it serve to lie or to mislead?

The nurses, doctors, support staff and carers? I don't think so

Its not lying its difference of opinion/interpretation. And its unhelpful to continue to use PPE as a blanket term when clearly many do not consider it so.

E.g. theres a headline in the Mirror of a nurse in ITU whose relatives they say said she was working without any PPE.

But read down and she was working in a "green zone" - whers non CV patients go, and green zones DO have PPE. But its not the type of PPE that ppl now assiciate with CV

What they didnt have was ITU level PPE. A different kind of PPE. Which you couldnt run around a green ward in anyway even if we had a mountain of it.

notanan2 Sun 12-Apr-20 13:09:24

Nobody is lying when its not comparing like for like.

If an area has been risk assessed as needing X PPE, But staff would feel more reassured if they had Y PPE.

Nobody is lying.
Managers arent lying. They HAVE supplied the PPE that matches the risk assessments.
Staff arent lying. They are talking about completely different items when they say "no PPE"

Whats needed to detangle to truth from the conflicting reports is much more specific reports. That specify the tasks in specific areas. That specify the level of PPE needed there and then specifically ask if THAT item is available there.

Just saying "do you have PPE" will get hugely varing replies depending on peoples interpretations of what they see as PPE and what they dont.

SirChenjin Sun 12-Apr-20 13:14:35

How about - community nurses treating covid patients wearing only aprons and masks?

I’m going to leave the detangling to the very experienced frontline NHS staff who have complained vociferously that the don’t have the equipment they need.

vampirequeen Sun 12-Apr-20 13:17:28

NHS staff every time. The Government knew what needed doing back in 2016 and chose to do nothing. Now we're all reaping the rewards of their lack of action.

MaizieD Sun 12-Apr-20 13:20:28

So, basically, notanan, you seem to be saying that NHS staff are ignorant and uninformed about whether or not they need PPE for specific tasks?