Institutional racism in the police?

That's just a ridiculous question. The police should stick to the rules which are there to provide protection for the public and clear information for officers. There are doubts over if this was an appropriate use of their powers and complied with the restrictions. Let's also not forget the first response of the Met was to say nothing had happened, they have now given an apology and referred this to investigation. These were not just ordinary black people but someone who could draw attention to what happened and publicise it.

Exactly , if they weren't well known there wouldn't be half the publicity. And as for it being a ridiculous question, how so? If you look at the response Cressida Dick has apologized for the distress not for what happened.
So presumably they did stick to the rules, they had reason to believe something was happening and pulled the car over to check.
BTW , if we are debating what happened to being polite ? I believe I am being polite so why when I ask a genuine question about what people want/how they want the police to behave , I am told I am being ridiculous?

Oh come on Lois. Why the false binary? There are issues with stop and search as any fair minded person would acknowledge. One of those issues is the manner in which it is done not if it is done.

It was a policeman on a routine stop and search who caught the Yorkshire Ripper many years ago.

The police need to do this if they are suspicious. It is to keep law abiding citizens safe. Criminals cruise around in cars looking for vulnerable houses to break into or cars to steal.

I can't comment on what happened with the athletes as I wasn't there, so I don't know why they pulled this car over.

Lois it’s been referred - I’m willing to await the outcome of that investigation. I really don’t know how you have the confidence to say they did stick to the rules. The police said they did - the rules will actually be open to interpretation anyway. And yes, it’s gone viral because of who they are - that doesn’t mean it’s automatically right or wrong what happened.

AGA of course routine stop and search within the rules are a necessary part of policing. I don’t know anyone who thinks otherwise but something been necessary doesn’t mean anything goes or that you shouldn’t have the right to complain if you’re unhappy with what happened to you. That’s what separates us out from many other much more draconian policing regimes

Loislovesstewie- it's the iceberg principle. If two people who have a public profile are stopped and treat in such a way it becomes exposed because of their profile, however there may be a lot of similar incidents which remain hidden because the victims are ordinary and don't attract such interest.
The use of handcuffs has been referred for investigation so it's not quite as clear as you indicate.
No one has questioned the use of stop and search just why its use is so concentrated on black people and if the way it is executed indicates racism in the force. In fact if you look at the figures the use of stop and search is not as productiveas you might imagine. You can find the figures for Stop and search here www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/stop-and-search/latest
And I have just discovered something I didn't know and that is that the ethnicity of the occupants of vehicles stopped and searched isn't recorded which I find rather worrying.

Suzie. As I said I can't comment as I don't know much about this incident but my daughter and grandson have told me it was very heavy handed and of course that is not acceptable and needs to be dealt with.

And white people who are stopped and searched are not interviewed on the news claiming they are victims

I have no idea annie about the negative experiences of white people being stopped and searched. I’d guess that some of them do have a bad experience because I don’t think race is the only potential bias. We know sex and class can also be relevant in a whole host of situations, not just stop and search. The point is about being well trained and having the tight attitude in the first place.

I was in a car as a youngster, we were stopped because my ( male) friend was driving his mum's brand new car, with permission. The police only believed him after dragging her out of bed at 2.a.m . No offences had occurred . I suspect as we looked like scruffy hippies that was reason to stop us. Am I upset? No, did I complain? No.
Only remembered that when thinking how many times I had been stopped by the police.

Now I am off for the evening.

I know a black doctor who has been stopped multiple times by the police. The athlete said her partner had been stopped a lot by the police. They have ANPR , does this show that they have stopped this car before? Recently in Suffolk a perfectly innocent couple were stopped, I'm sure that the police were biased in that case.

The police wouldn’t know anyone was perfectly innocent just
by looking at them.

^The police wouldn’t know anyone was perfectly innocent just
by looking at them.^
But, in this country, aren't we innocent until proved guilty in a court of law?+

Yes, innocent until proven guilty , even if seen sticking a knife
into someone

Yes Callistemon we are innocent until proved to be guilty in court in this country.

I didn’t like the way the police handled this particular situation, but nonetheless I would very much like to know why the the driver of the car didn’t stop when the police indicated that he should. I would not dream of not stopping if requested to by the police, I simply would not countenance it, and nor should anyone else. Anyone who doesn’t stop when asked should expect to be treated as if guilty.

I had two members of my family in the police force, my nephew and another nephew’s wife. Both have now left, to work in jobs where they are respected, and not in any danger. I don’t blame them. A few comments on here show that some people still regard the police very unfavourably. Who wants to live with that for their whole working life?

loislovesstewie is raising some decent points to discuss I feel. I don't know enough about the incident involving the athletes to add anything to the comments made already.

I watched the attacks on our police force as they attempted to prevent gatherings/block parties for example that are illegal during the current covid crisis. The met were driven back by groups throwing bricks, other missiles and charging at them with much larger numbers than the police officers had. The police re-grouped, brought in riot control officers, the same thing happened, they were attacked and driven back. It could be argued that the largely black party goers were driven by a sense of righteous anger against a police force they believe to be institutionally racist.
There will no doubt be an element of that. It doesn't answer the total question though. Who gives those crowds the right to attack the police in that way. Why not respect the guidelines/the law about the high risk posed by this virus and go home. Why have illegal gatherings in the first place

This doesn't only apply to London. Im in the north west and we've had a plague of raves in local beauty spots. The level of rubbish left behind is disgusting.

I'm not minimising white privilege at all. The local raves were primarily white kids. My point is about lawlessness, a total disregard for our responsibilities to each other, especially during this dangerous covid times. I apologise if raising something not directly linked to the OP's question about institutional racism in the police is thought to detract from that important discussion.

Iam who would defend such attacks on the police? But none of that means there isn’t an issue in the police service ( as in other institutions/organisations) of unacceptable racist attitudes amongst a small number of officers. I absolutely take your point on general attitudes in terms of our responsibilities towards each other. Whilst the raves/parties are primarily young people ( and in my area very white) there are plenty of people of all ages being irresponsible - look at attitudes towards mask wearing for example.

suzie, I don't dispute there isn't an issue in the police service, or in other institutions/organisations of racism amongst a small number of people. Our public services are drawn from our general public and will reflect that. If we demonise the police force as institutionally racist because of the actions of some officers, the result may be a lack of BAME applicants. Decent young white candidates may fear applying because they may be seen by friends as possible racists. We need the police to reflect the society it serves.

Iam64 there are quite a few black ex police officers who have made complaints about the racist treatment they received in the Met. That will stop more black people applying. So will the concept that black people are targeted by the police. Which if you look at the Stop and Search figures is true. The other thing is if officers suffer racism within the force how much more will be directed at the general public?

trisher - I don't dispute any of this. My question is what do you suggest is done to support the good police officers, to prevent the whole force being dismissed. I don't know much about the Met, other than what we all see on tv. I know a fair bit about our force area and it doesn't feel institutionally racist. Yes I'm a white woman but the nature of my work meant I was exposed to the police too regularly not to develop an understanding of it warts and all.
I recognise your desire to educate everyone on the racism you believe to be institutional in the police. I struggle to fit that with my direct experience.

Perhaps if people stopped relying on their direct experiences and listened to black people we might make some progress.

We have made progress....a lot of progress.Just think back to the sixties and seventies.
Through education and race and equality laws, its nothing like how it used to be.It’s an ongoing issue though and will take time.

I think that's a valid point to be honest. I dont know any woman who has experienced domestic violence, it has also never happened to me. I still believe that domestic violence occurs at a high rate in this country. My direct experience isn't really relevant.